Tower block fire - london

dowie said:
you referred to councils citing costs and you don't seem to have provided anything to support this, I was just asking what you were referring to as you've still provided nothing

for example no mention of cost from the council leader here:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/82...fered-sprinklers-as-Nicholas-Paget-Brown-said
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-40369131

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...rs-grenfell-towers-to-high-rises-were-ignored

Maybe just use google instead of relying on other peeps to link ?
 
dowie said:
where has anyone cited cost there as a reason for not fitting them? Also you're linking to stories after this fire - you were referring previously to plenty of reports you'd apparently seen over the years...?
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Maybe actually read the Guardian article ?
 
dowie said:
where has anyone cited cost there as a reason for not fitting them? Also you're linking to stories after this fire - you were referring previously to plenty of reports you'd apparently seen over the years...?
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I think you need to actually look at coroners reports, fire brigade reports and public enquiry reports. The Ronan point public enquiry even recommended Gas to be removed from all high rise buildings. It was outlawed in 1974..................so why was gas installed in Grenfell during the refurbishment.
 
Dolph said:
I suspect the same applies in reverse as well, as the fire certification for the insulation was completed with non combustible facing.
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absolutely which is why I think it will be found that its a detailing issue rather than a product issue. With these things it often is but neither product will survive this incident.
 
dowie said:
What is with all the attitude? You could simply have responded to the initial post asking you about this and posted a link with a quote...
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Sorry dowie, it's not an "attitude". It's just that i get very fed up with peeps constantly asking for links or proof when i red forums. What is wrong with just looking it up yourself ?
 
kitfit1 said:
Sorry dowie, it's not an "attitude". It's just that i get very fed up with peeps constantly asking for links or proof when i red forums. What is wrong with just looking it up yourself ?
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Because I don't necessarily know what you're referring to, generally the person making a claim is the one who ought to cite what they're referring to rather than expect others to go off and google for any number of potential articles etc.. I'd only previously seen press reports re: this particular incident with claims from the council citing things other than cost for not fitting sprinklers.
 
Orionaut said:
I wonder how much of the cost concerns and residents objections for installing such systems in Council blocks might have been down to the possibility that both the council and the residents would be concerned that the destructive possibilities from setting off sprinkler systems or stuffing fire-hoses through peoples letter boxes might prove to great a temptation for the little ******** who delight in this sort of thing to resist. :/
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I totally get where the residents might be coming from on that. But Birmingham has had sprinklers in all of it's tower blocks in public areas for years (landings, stairwells, bin shutes and the bin areas), with little or no issues at all.
 
kitfit1 said:
so why was gas installed in Grenfell during the refurbishment.
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Probably some greenwash over CO2 emissions.

I imagine that "All Electric" homes perform poorly in terms of CO2 emissions compared to gas heated ones.

Is there some current requirement that Local Authorities have to comply with regarding reduction of CO2 emissions from the buildings under there control??

Slap on insulation and gas boilers retrofitted to old all electric properties might well have been primarily motivated by some requirement to reduce CO2 emissions to comply with some EU (Or whatever) edict..
 
kitfit1 said:
I totally get where the residents might be coming from on that. But Birmingham has had sprinklers in all of it's tower blocks in public areas for years (landings, stairwells, bin shutes and the bin areas), with little or no issues at all.
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Some council estates may well have more problems with crime/vandalism than others. Only the individual residents can know for sure. If there are indeed "Housing Projects" (To use the American term) where residents do not want fire fighting equipment installed, they must have a reason... :/
 
Orionaut said:
Some council estates may well have more problems with crime/vandalism than others. Only the individual residents can know for sure. If there are indeed "Housing Projects" (To use the American term) where residents do not want fire fighting equipment installed, they must have a reason... :/
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Sprinklers inside the home can also impact your contents insurance, as in the event they go off, they ruin pretty much everything in there...
 
dowie said:
I think setting off sprinklers would have been a concern, it seems the residents in this tower frequently dumped rubbish in the entrance foyer/corridors... not as in dropped an empty crips packet or something but literally took mattresses, fridges, old furniture, bin bags and were too lazy to take them to the bin store so dumped in communal areas. One of the complaints against the council form the blog that seemed to complain about everything is that they didn't remove the rubbish quickly enough... rubbish that residents had dumped there themselves!
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Erm Didn't the residents blog say it was a problem when the lifts were out of action during the refurb?

IE when a lot of residents couldn't have got stuff out without assistance* and an issue the council and it's contractors should have been aware of and taken steps to deal with?


*I doubt many people would be willing/able to try and drag large, often heavy stuff down a narrow stairwell for multiple floors without assistance.
 
Werewolf said:
Erm Didn't the residents blog say it was a problem when the lifts were out of action during the refurb?

IE when a lot of residents couldn't have got stuff out without assistance* and an issue the council and it's contractors should have been aware of and taken steps to deal with?


*I doubt many people would be willing/able to try and drag large, often heavy stuff down a narrow stairwell for multiple floors without assistance.
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not really an excuse for dumping it in the stairwell or other communal areas... also I doubt very much it was disabled residents dumping a fridge, mattress etc... how did they get the replacement fridge/mattress into their flat? Why couldn't they have waited?
 
Dolph said:
Sprinklers inside the home can also impact your contents insurance, as in the event they go off, they ruin pretty much everything in there...
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As opposed to a fire burning all your stuff, your house, your family, your neighbours and all their stuff and family. Sprinklers do not work like in the movies where, one goes off and every room in the building is flooded. It takes enough heat to break the heat sensitive valve, and then water is released from that sprinkler only, to quench the fire that's only happening underneath it.

Like herd immunity, everyone in a tower block should take the "risk" of a sprinkler soaking their stuff because (1) Their stuff is on fire, and (2) It could save lives, and not just the ones in the fiery apartment, but the ones in the whole building.
 
Steampunk said:
As opposed to a fire burning all your stuff, your house, your family, your neighbours and all their stuff and family. Sprinklers do not work like in the movies where, one goes off and every room in the building is flooded. It takes enough heat to break the heat sensitive valve, and then water is released from that sprinkler only, to quench the fire that's only happening underneath it.

Like herd immunity, everyone in a tower block should take the "risk" of a sprinkler soaking their stuff because (1) Their stuff is on fire, and (2) It could save lives, and not just the ones in the fiery apartment, but the ones in the whole building.
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Spot on.

100's of millions of peeps go to work in office blocks everyday that are covered by sprinklers. Those offices they work in have 1000's of Billions of pounds worth of computers in them............................is the contents insurance an issue ? i think not.
 
dowie said:
not really an excuse for dumping it in the stairwell or other communal areas... also I doubt very much it was disabled residents dumping a fridge, mattress etc... how did they get the replacement fridge/mattress into their flat? Why couldn't they have waited?
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Are we in the territory of blaming the dead for this fire?

Sorry not read all the comments since I was here last but considering the apparent cause in this instance the quote looks shameful!
 
stewski said:
Are we in the territory of blaming the dead for this fire?

Sorry not read all the comments since I was here last but considering the apparent cause in this instance the quote looks shameful!
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perhaps you should read the thread/comments in context then, don't quote me and call comments 'shameful' if you're too lazy to do that
 
dowie said:
perhaps you should read the thread/comments in context then, don't quote me if you're too lazy to do that
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Nothing in the thread shows why the post isn't fairly shameful, on a page full of idiocy about sprinklers and your insensitive points about rubbish in halls when discussing a fire that has clearly spread externally I'm not sure what I should be looking for?

By the way the quote button on my PC hasn't greyed out on your posts just because I haven't read every utterance on the thread so I'll keep using it, perhaps when making sensitive posts on threads about dead people YOU could add your own context?
 
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