Tower block fire - london

Mynight said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40273715

Seems to be the idea that the apartments are designed to contain a fire so evacuating everyone could cause more problems due to the design of the buildings (blocking stair case). Sadly it clearly needs reconsidering :(.

I don't think it's something that the majority of places will adopt especially after this.
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Exactly but where do you draw the line? Everyone or no one? Half? Should you just run out of the building and leave everyone else there? Should you warn your floor? Should you warn the two adjacent floors?

Surely this must have to be defined in the policy/fire action plan as well.



Or should you have a proper fire alarm system which alerts the entire building and tells them which zone the fire is in so they can make their own decision if they want to die or not?
 
asim18 said:
rant
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we've already covered the purpose of the stay-in policy, it prevents residents stampeding into danger and gives clear access to fire crews to allow them access as quickly as possible to extinguish the fire.

the issues to be studied are:
historical issues with the electrical grid- possible cause of the fire
failure of fire alarm to function- there's no excuse whatsoever
lack of potential exit routes- cheapskates
lack of sprinkler system/some form of fire deterrant- again cheapskates

and most of all: the building being too damn flammable
 
easyrider said:
You're not for one minute suggesting that May was having a meeting on "what went wrong" are you ?

And if this had any gravitas on anything?

The damage was done.

The thing to do was to offer support to the community.

OMG the more politics is discussed in these forums...The more forum members "people with reputation and clout" seem to come across as all actually not very bright at all....
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This, this is why politics fails, if you campaign with actual ideas and discuss policy you lose, if you shake more hands than the other candidate, you win. Hugging someone does absolutely nothing, in fact in many cases after a disaster a visiting politician causes security problems, it's a photo up so people who have had their lives destroyed get to have it all filmed because a politician wants to speak to them. Roads get shut, cars come in, work stops as a politician wants to be SEEN to be helping but actually doing nothing.

Was May asking them what could have gone better, what they need, how to prevent this in other towers, maybe, maybe not. But you're crucifying one person and talking up another based on almost certainly a campaign/PR person telling Corbyn to go hug some people while that person phones a few reporters to come and film it. Perception over reality, if a politician sells you a picture and you buy it, well, that is why nothing gets better, they just have to look like they might help and people vote for them.
 
adolf hamster said:
we've already covered the purpose of the stay-in policy, it prevents residents stampeding into danger and gives clear access to fire crews to allow them access as quickly as possible to extinguish the fire.
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Stampeding? You've never heard a fire alarm before have you? This is why PROPER fire procedures and DRILLS are very useful. You don't suddenly lose your mind and start stampeding and you know what you have to do. You know you have plenty of time because you know you have been alerted immediately and you stay calm. Heck there would have been time for people to grab prized possessions and bop out, what are you talking about stampede? If the alarm went off within 30 seconds of initial flame there would be absolutely no panic whatsoever most people wouldn't even have seen any smoke whatsoever.

I have NEVER been in a fire alarm where anyone has started stampeding lol. Been in about 50-60 drills in my life. Majority of them surprise drills.

Also your post is based on incorrect assumptions "stampeding into danger" what danger? do you realise people have died because of this ASSUMED danger. My thinking is based around the actual reality of the events. There was a massive window for many people to get out calmly had they at least been given the opportunity to do so.
 
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drunkenmaster said:
This, this is why politics fails, if you campaign with actual ideas and discuss policy you lose, if you shake more hands than the other candidate, you win. Hugging someone does absolutely nothing, in fact in many cases after a disaster a visiting politician causes security problems, it's a photo up so people who have had their lives destroyed get to have it all filmed because a politician wants to speak to them. Roads get shut, cars come in, work stops as a politician wants to be SEEN to be helping but actually doing nothing.

Was May asking them what could have gone better, what they need, how to prevent this in other towers, maybe, maybe not. But you're crucifying one person and talking up another based on almost certainly a campaign/PR person telling Corbyn to go hug some people while that person phones a few reporters to come and film it. Perception over reality, if a politician sells you a picture and you buy it, well, that is why nothing gets better, they just have to look like they might help and people vote for them.
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Are you ten?
 
asim18 said:
Stampeding? You've never heard a fire alarm before have you? This is why PROPER fire procedures and DRILLS are very useful. You don't suddenly lose your mind and start stampeding. You know you have plenty of time and you stay calm. Heck there would have been time for people to grab prized possessions and bop out, what are you talking about stampede? If the alarm went off within 30 seconds of initial flame there would be absolutely no panic whatsoever most people wouldn't even have seen any smoke whatsoever.

I have NEVER been in a fire alarm where anyone has started stampeding lol. Been in about 50-60 drills in my life. Majority of them surprise drills.

Also your post is based on incorrect assumptions "stampeding into danger" what danger? do you realise people have died because of this ASSUMED danger. My thinking is based around the actual reality of the events. There was a massive window for many people to get out calmly.
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It's not a School Asim, it's a larger tower block with hundreds of individual families. You think your going to listen to the alarm when the moron family down the stairs keep setting the alarm off when cooking dinner or if a bunch of idiot kids with nothing better to do know they can trigger an alarm easily enough. There should have been additional escape routes though and the possibility for the fire dept to raise an alarm if it's a serious situation.
 
easyrider said:
Are you ten?
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I know you are but what am I.

Seriously, you're having a pop saying it's disgusting that May went there and didn't randomly shove cameras in peoples faces to get a photo op. While you're praising Corbyn for going and talking to them. Can you not see how vapid, how skin deep and how easy it is to manipulate people like yourself with those kinds of political moves?
 
drunkenmaster said:
I know you are but what am I.

Seriously, you're having a pop saying it's disgusting that May went there and didn't randomly shove cameras in peoples faces to get a photo op. While you're praising Corbyn for going and talking to them. Can you not see how vapid, how skin deep and how easy it is to manipulate people like yourself with those kinds of political moves?
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I have a BA honours degree in TV and radio production. I understand how the media works.

Unfortunately you don't. ( it seems)

Your comment is not only wide of the mark, its also a typical response,and not unusual, so I can forgive your uninformed response. :)
 
ColdAsIce said:
It's not a School Asim, it's a larger tower block with hundreds of individual families. You think your going to listen to the alarm when the moron family down the stairs keep setting the alarm off when cooking dinner or if a bunch of idiot kids with nothing better to do know they can trigger an alarm easily enough. There should have been additional escape routes though and the possibility for the fire dept to raise an alarm if it's a serious situation.
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A whole building alarm isn't some smoke alarm that's going to go off when someone burns their dinner. Nor a 'smash the glass' alarm, as these are easily vandalised. It would obviously need to something that's linked into sensors around the building. Or at very least something the emergency services can trigger remotely if there's a need.
 
ColdAsIce said:
It's not a School Asim, it's a larger tower block with hundreds of individual families. You think your going to listen to the alarm when the moron family down the stairs keep setting the alarm off when cooking dinner or if a bunch of idiot kids with nothing better to do know they can trigger an alarm easily enough. There should have been additional escape routes though and the possibility for the fire dept to raise an alarm if it's a serious situation.
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There are ways to stop a fire alarm being set off by children and cooking, you say "it's not a school" but your example involves mischievous children. As you say the ability to raise an alarm after calling 999 is brilliant.

But did they immediately start evacuating people? At what point was it established that the stay put policy was not effective and was only killing people? Identifying this moment in time is actually crucial to any investigation.
 
:D


Any fire alarm system in a place like would have to be heat based. Couldn't do smoke would cause too many false alarms.

Did the building actually have a central fire alarm that didnt function or was it just missing completely? :confused:
 
asim18 said:
There are ways to stop a fire alarm being set off by children and cooking, you say "it's not a school" but your example involves mischievous children. As you say the ability to raise an alarm after calling 999 is brilliant.

But did they immediately start evacuating people? At what point was it established that the stay put policy was not effective and was only killing people? Identifying this moment in time is actually crucial to any investigation.
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I've never been aware of proper practises and drills in big blocks like that.
 
The Telegraph bring up an interesting point:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...erno-disaster-waiting-happen-concerns-raised/

Alongside the cosmetic appeal of cladding, it is used as an insulation to make buildings more sustainable to meet green energy requirements.

"It could be that this is the quest for sustainability trumping other concerns," Dr Glockling warned.

...

He said that some estimates were that 30,000 buildings had been fitted with cladding, which is a cheap way of making a building more sustainable without rebuilding it.
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I wondered why fat cats would spend so much money just to make a building look better.

Would they have been legally obliged to clad the building to meet green regulations?
 
mmj_uk said:
I wondered why fat cats would spend so much money just to make a building look better.

Would they have been legally obliged to clad the building to meet green regulations?
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As I mentioned earlier in the thread - there was a claim that they had increased the efficiency of the thermal properties of the building to "save the occupants money" by making it cheaper to heat, etc. but those living there claim they never saw anything back from it - any saving from it went to the top.
 
mmj_uk said:
I wondered why fat cats would spend so much money just to make a building look better.

Would they have been legally obliged to clad the building to meet green regulations?
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I'm not sure that they'd have been 'legally obliged' but it would have been desirable to not waste energy etc.. there are problems with heat loss in some of these old concrete buildings
 
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