Caporegime
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I think the real question here is how does Iniesta stack up to Eboue?
*Transfer Window 2014/15 Season Rumours/Signings *AKA Man U fans listing every player under the Sun
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Soldato
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Well ones black and others white and never heard of cesec being called el tripod. You do the maths
Soldato
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Sanchez would be brilliant (but unlikely).
Are 'La Stampa' a reliable source, or are they the equivalent of the Italian Daily Star?
A few other places have started to quote their report in Spain.
Soldato
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Stats mean something but people look into to them to much. Di Maria was Motm in the CL final and I bet his stats were inferior to other players on the pitch.
It's the total input over 90 minutes that counts not 1 minute of an assist/goal imo.
It's the total input over 90 minutes that counts not 1 minute of an assist/goal imo.
Soldato
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Reus Injury puts him out of the world cup, wonder if that will impact any transfer rumors.
Caporegime
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PogbON! Fancy letting him leave in the first place though.
How could you not though, who would have given him a try ahead of the irreplaceable Carrick, the incomparable Cleverley, or that fat guy with the dreadlocks?
Very bizarre that Fergie let him walk, all he needed was some sub appearances moving in to starts. Sooo many games a team like Utd could put him on the bench and give him 30 mins after being 2-3 up. They would have quickly worked out he performed well and given him starts.
You wonder if it was a situation in which Fergie thought giving him game time, and publicity, would mean more clubs offer him a contract. They could have been hoping that a smaller wage increase and the promise of game time soon would get him to sign where giving him games would also mean Utd having to offer him much more money to get him to stay.
At least, if I was a Utd fan I'd hope it was one of those two, a poor case of trying to get him on a cheaper deal rather than being unable to see how good he is or how poor Carrick/Anderson/Cleverley were.
He was SO good at Juve so quickly I find it very hard to believe he didn't look plenty good enough for Utd to want to keep him at (almost) all costs though.
How could you not though, who would have given him a try ahead of the irreplaceable Carrick, the incomparable Cleverley, or that fat guy with the dreadlocks?
Very bizarre that Fergie let him walk, all he needed was some sub appearances moving in to starts. Sooo many games a team like Utd could put him on the bench and give him 30 mins after being 2-3 up. They would have quickly worked out he performed well and given him starts.
You wonder if it was a situation in which Fergie thought giving him game time, and publicity, would mean more clubs offer him a contract. They could have been hoping that a smaller wage increase and the promise of game time soon would get him to sign where giving him games would also mean Utd having to offer him much more money to get him to stay.
At least, if I was a Utd fan I'd hope it was one of those two, a poor case of trying to get him on a cheaper deal rather than being unable to see how good he is or how poor Carrick/Anderson/Cleverley were.
He was SO good at Juve so quickly I find it very hard to believe he didn't look plenty good enough for Utd to want to keep him at (almost) all costs though.
Irreapective of the fact Carrick was having one of his best seasons at the club (and had been a crucial player in a title winning team), TC wasnt even at the club ( he was on loan) and Anderson wasnt getting much game time anyway so that makes little difference
Also just because he has done well in a much slower league two years later ( there were reports nd of last season that he was even a little up himself, amd his game wasnt as good as he wanted to believe) there is no way of knowing if he would have been an instant success in the Epl.
there were a lot of reports just before he left Utd he was too arogant for that stage of his career.
Hindsight is always a wonderful gift its always with 100% clarity.
From the opposite point of view look at Macheda, who started brilliantly on his first two starts and after that did absolutely **** all for years to come
Caporegime
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It's particularly surprising to hear Cleverley was on loan, seeing as Pogba had his 3 sub appearances in 11/12 and left at the end of the season. While Cleverly was on loan to Wigan in 10/11 and started 13 games for Utd in 11/12.
Aside from the fact he wasn't on loan that season it's irrelevant, he was a Utd player and as such has a bearing on who the manager wants to keep. he clearly wanted to play Cleverley while not playing Pogba, had he been on loan he could have also planned this for the next season and Pogba would still consider him in the situation.
As for Carrick having his best season that year.... okay, except, no, he was **** then and he's **** now.
AS for hindsight, what part of my analysis involved hindsight? Was it when I suggested that how good he was instantly at Juve SUGGESTS he must have already been pretty good by that point, or was it when I DIDN'T state I knew how good Pogba was the year before?
As above, I presume that based on how I saw Pogba play at the start of the season and how Juve reacted to him, that is, starting him against easier opposition within a month, giving him the odd start and lots of sub appearances to being first team within 4-5 months, I personally can't believe he couldn't have shown every sign of being very close to a first team started the season before.
Likewise, Carrick is poo, Anderson doesn't play much(that was my point) and Cleverley both missed a huge portion of the season injured and didn't look at all good when he came back from injury. All things adding up to lots of reasons to give Pogba some real chances.
Macheda, you learned he wasn't good enough by.... giving him chances, that is the fundamental argument. If you'd given Pogba chances he'd likely(based on what we've seen) shown he was well worth keeping and giving more games. When you don't give a player reasonable chances you don't really know if they'll make the step up. Giving a player pretty much 80 minutes in the league doesn't constitute a real chance. Regardless of if Pogba turned out crap or brilliant, generally speaking you give players a serious chance. Macheda got a heck of a lot more than 80 minutes and showed little of the promise/potential Pogba has.
It's not about hindsight, or how good he looked then or now, it's that you had a player who according to just about anyone was very promising and Fergie chose to not give him any real time. There are MUCH worse players that Utd have given a lot longer. You give young players a chance or they move on because they didn't get a chance. There were multiple chances to give him real chances throughout the season and by the looks of things he would have been better than some of the alternatives. The mistake is simply in not giving him a chance to do well OR fail. They didn't sell him for 5mil when there was a chance he was crap(not playing someone they KNOW was crap and trying to get someone to pay for them is a genuine strategy), they simply didn't give him the chance and the player left. The only thing that had to happen was to give him a few more games, there was no downside as they've lost him anyway. There were many upsides, it was daft to not properly try him that is what people are saying.
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Man of Honour
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Would another option be that Ferguson was trying to teach him a lesson? If Mr Pogba is as much of an egotist as has been suggested then maybe he was being shown that no man is bigger than the club (or more important than Ferguson if it comes to that)? Perhaps given a bit of humility he'd have received more game time. Then again maybe it wouldn't have mattered and the only way he'd ever get to play was to move or for the manager to leave.
Caporegime
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What a lesson he taught him, go Fergie.
Man of Honour
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Maybe that wasn't the reason, maybe it's just his choice of deodorant was offensive to the manager. I'm not sure we'll ever know for certain but after about 10 seconds thought on the matter it's at least a vaguely plausible reason if the idea that Ferguson was unable to spot talent is also plausible.
Although I'd have to admit I'm curious as to whether in the same position you'd have played Pogba irrespective of anything else? If he really was demanding playing time then effectively allowing him to play on his terms would mean that he was more powerful than the manager. Maybe that's an acceptable situation but it would seem to set a dangerous precedent and for all his faults I don't think it's one Ferguson would have allowed to happen - short term success potentially if the player is really that good vs the longer term harm of saying to young sports stars that they are more important than the manager.
Soldato
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Not a chance he's worth 60, considering vidal and fab could be bought for less!
Caporegime
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Him being too arrogant or demanding playing time seem more like excuses to cover a major mistake then genuine issues.
Pogba demanded playing time, who cares, his age is irrelevant to the situation. If a player is 18 or 29, with less than a year on his contract and the ability to walk out on a free to join whoever he wants, that player has a strong position.
Fact is they wanted him to sign a new contract and he wanted to be played otherwise felt signing a contract was possibly going to trap him. When you have a player like Anderson who you basically don't use for 5 years, but also don't sell, would you be willing to sign a new contract at 18 on the basis that the team MIGHT play you in the future or you may be trapped for 4 years without being played.
It's entirely reasonable for him to ask to be played(if he did) because it's his career. If Juve were showing interest and he felt they would genuinely play him, why would you not want to feel like Utd would also play you.
On the arrogant/teaching a player a lesson thing, both sound unlikely and frankly stupid in terms of trying to teach him a lesson. A player with 4 years on a contract making huge demands, yeah, you can maybe bench a player and teach them a lesson. But when teaching a player a lesson means a huge chance he'll walk on a free, it's insane. Also the fact is, top players are usually arrogant, it doesn't matter. If he's good you play him, if he's not you don't. Again the impression from how quickly he progressed is that he was a very good player when he left and fully deserved to be getting playing time.
Carrick, Anderson and Cleverley, one crap, one crap and fat, one injured... absurd not to give him games. Again the worst case scenario is you give him games, pump up his value and he leaves on a free getting a bigger wage having proven himself more... but this happened anyway. Best case is he felt wanted, played great, improved the team and signed a new contract because he was happy to stay if he played. Nothing to lose and still didn't give him a chance. You give average players a chance(Macheda) because you have to find out if they are worth keeping or not. Pogba should have gotten a chance regardless and they could have ended up keeping one of the best young talents in europe as a result.
Pogba demanded playing time, who cares, his age is irrelevant to the situation. If a player is 18 or 29, with less than a year on his contract and the ability to walk out on a free to join whoever he wants, that player has a strong position.
Fact is they wanted him to sign a new contract and he wanted to be played otherwise felt signing a contract was possibly going to trap him. When you have a player like Anderson who you basically don't use for 5 years, but also don't sell, would you be willing to sign a new contract at 18 on the basis that the team MIGHT play you in the future or you may be trapped for 4 years without being played.
It's entirely reasonable for him to ask to be played(if he did) because it's his career. If Juve were showing interest and he felt they would genuinely play him, why would you not want to feel like Utd would also play you.
On the arrogant/teaching a player a lesson thing, both sound unlikely and frankly stupid in terms of trying to teach him a lesson. A player with 4 years on a contract making huge demands, yeah, you can maybe bench a player and teach them a lesson. But when teaching a player a lesson means a huge chance he'll walk on a free, it's insane. Also the fact is, top players are usually arrogant, it doesn't matter. If he's good you play him, if he's not you don't. Again the impression from how quickly he progressed is that he was a very good player when he left and fully deserved to be getting playing time.
Carrick, Anderson and Cleverley, one crap, one crap and fat, one injured... absurd not to give him games. Again the worst case scenario is you give him games, pump up his value and he leaves on a free getting a bigger wage having proven himself more... but this happened anyway. Best case is he felt wanted, played great, improved the team and signed a new contract because he was happy to stay if he played. Nothing to lose and still didn't give him a chance. You give average players a chance(Macheda) because you have to find out if they are worth keeping or not. Pogba should have gotten a chance regardless and they could have ended up keeping one of the best young talents in europe as a result.
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