Turkey Grand Prix 2010, Istanbul Park - Race 7/19

[sunama]

During the replays of the incident Christian Horner mouthed the word "move" when he saw Vettel up the inside of Webber and Webber sticking to his line.

Could it be that Webber was asked (in code), to move aside to allow Vettel through. When Webber made it difficult and decided to compete against Vettel, Horner was getting frustrated. He was frustrated because he had given the order to Webber, to let Vettel through, yet Webber was fighting the overtake.

Could this be what happened?

 

[Demon]

I'm sure that the senior management at RedBull have their own (long term) agendas.

It is highly unorthodox.. Surely they should just absolve it as a racing incident, One driver was quite unyielding, the other made a very poor move, but at the end of the day SV as the man who was technically in the wrong, it's just that MW didn't exactly help himself, but was technically right.. end of..

 

[dannyjo22]

That may not be the case, Jenson says he was conserving from lap 20, and says Lewis was conserving from 3 laps before - but doesn't say whether thats 3 laps before he started (lap 17), or 3 laps before the overtake (lap 45).

The fact that he then says that perhaps Lewis was getting up to speed (with saving fuel) indicates it may well be the latter, and lewis was shown recieving a message on lap 44 to save fuel - 1.59.50 on iplayer.

So if that was his first message (which occurs after Brundle said Jenson was catching Lewis) it seems that Button had to conserve fuel from a much earlier point, but perhaps Lewis had to be more drastic as he started later.

Again, we won't really know, but needless to say both Jenson and Lewis were saving fuel during the overtake, but possibly to different extents.

I think it's pretty obvious Jenson meant lewis was conserving fuel from lap 17, so it was hamilton that was conserving fuel from a much earlier point.

It's not like they have one fuel save mode, they would have been fluently changing the setting throughout the race looking at the levels. Hamilton so close to the red bulls would be saving more fuel than JB as well.

 

[dalin80]

Hamilton so close to the red bulls would be saving more fuel than JB as well.

iam sorry, on what planet?

 

[sunama]

I wouldve thought that Hamilton would've been using more fuel because he was "racing" and desperately trying to get past the RB cars. Button on the other hand was concentrating on hanging on, which means that his fuel usage was probably more carefully measured.

 

[hiroofheroes]

I think it's pretty obvious Jenson meant lewis was conserving fuel from lap 17, so it was hamilton that was conserving fuel from a much earlier point.

It's not like they have one fuel save mode, they would have been fluently changing the setting throughout the race looking at the levels. Hamilton so close to the red bulls would be saving more fuel than JB as well.

It just goes to show we can't know for sure, I interpret it the other way I described - but neither of us can be 100% sure.

Were the fuel saving orders to help Jenson (slow Lewis for the overtake), help Lewis (slow Jenson after Lewis recaptured the lead, even if it wasn't quite as critical for Jenson to save fuel) or just a case of the two different strategies coming into play (fair treatment).

I think its just a case of differing strategies.

 

[FrankJH]

Oh dear, bring the forum chav speak out why don't you.. I made an observation on the situation, not some attack on anyone.. calm down..

I assume you don't like my rather frank review of JB's performance..


How is that so offensive, did he or did he not just sit 1.5 seconds or more behind Vettel for ages, then when Vettel Jumped LH, did JB not then sit 1.5+ seconds behind LH? until the incident and fuel saving malarky which I don't want to get into. In the same period of time, what was LH's gap to the car in front, and how many times did he get totally in touch with them down to the last complex?

And as for the fuel, both had to save fuel, but from LH's mouth, he said he had targets to hit and was surprised to see Button right behind him, however I don't believe the necessary facts are available to know who was doing what fuel wise, all we saw was LH slow down, JB didn't, then the overtake/re-overtake (awesome btw), but then JB got a critical fuel warning, and slowed down considerably after that, LH didn't have to slow down as much in the last few laps? You can read what you want into it, I prefer not to, because you can't prove a thing either way..

Some people are so sensitive, if you remotely don't swoon to JB, you must be ridiculed as if in the school playground, and I like the bloke, but me, and it seems a lot of people seem to not find him as challenging a driver as others..



Oh, and didn't Alguesauri also set a faster lap then the pair of them at some point? does this mean he's better then both of them?.. I don't think so.. which is why I don't put 'spot' laptimes above what my eyes are telling me over the whole race duration..

I never said you had to swoon - just give credit where its due, which quite a few around here including you refuse to do where JB is concerned.

1) JB was conserving fuel since lap 20 , which I believe was well before LH was asked to conserve (and given that LH was RIGHT BEHIND Vettel for most of the race this indicates LH would have saved some fuel to start with), yet JB was still equaling their lap times and better in some circumstances

In regards to your Alguesari comment - of course he was able to given the fact that he was on BRAND new tyres with a lot less fuel than when all the times Im talking about where set - so its unsurprising that he got a fastest racing lap at that point, the point was that 20 or so laps after coming out of the pits on the same fuel load as the Red Bulls, in a racing situation JB set a number of consecutive fastest laps (not just a single one like Alguesari)

So what if LH was "in touch", he was also working his tyres a lot harder constantly battling - rather than conserving any grip that he had like JB, Im not saying one is right and one is wrong, but there are many ways to skin a cat, its not automatically correct the way the rules have been set to constantly push all your equipment the maximum for the whole race (when you need to be 2 - 3 seconds a lap faster to have a hope in over taking, or mistake being made)

Well JB himself said to the BBC directly that he was conserving from lap 20 yet LH hasnt said anything like that until much nearer the end....think what you like but to me that says a lot more for JB than it does for LH (given that JB was still very much in touch for the intervening 20 laps or so)

Its also not been mentioned that for some reason JB lost out drastically in the pitstops - he was I actually believe about 1s behind Vettel before the German pitted, JB then did a sequence of 2 fastest laps (upto that point) before his own stop - but when he came out of the pits he was 4 ish seconds off Vettel when by all rights he should have been ahead - given the fastest laps and Vettel's so so laps out of the pits

JB also seemed to be easily able to keep up with LH throughout the majority of the race - even though LH is such a god given blessing of a racer yet JB isnt, talk about double standards!!!

You seem to be hyper sensitive about language but Im not going to resort to hurling insults your way

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Could it be that Webber was asked (in code), to move aside to allow Vettel through. When Webber made it difficult and decided to compete against Vettel, Horner was getting frustrated. He was frustrated because he had given the order to Webber, to let Vettel through, yet Webber was fighting the overtake.

Could this be what happened?

That's what I thought, but then I defy any man who's leading the WDC to yield to a teammate for no reason other than team orders.

Webber looked faster than Vettel over the race, so he probably thought of it as an indirect insult?

As said, only they know what happened, or if there was even a team order but it's over with, and they came out 100% worse because of it.

Is the forum on iPlayer yet?

 

[FrankJH]

iam sorry, on what planet?

If you follow a car as closely as LH was to Vettel you save fuel (look at Christian Horner's interview with BBC on Andrew Benson's article for further verification) , ok CH was talking about Vettel /Webber but its the same thing

edit - Relistening to Jenson's interview after (which Danny linked to above I think) - I actually think JB states that Lewis was told to conserve fuel from 3 laps before the McLaren overtaking manouvres not from three laps before JB was told to conserve - listen to JB's english and he is actually talking about that lap when he mentions "Lewis was asked to coserve three laps before" - not three laps before I was

Maybe Im reading it wrong, but thats what I always thought he said

 

[mattx2]

According to autosport Webber had to turn down his engine on lap 40 and Vettel still had one lap of optimum fuel mix left before he would have also had to turn down to a fuel saving map which made lap 40 his only chance to overtake and he made a mess of it

so it probably wasn't team orders as these fuel readings will show up on the drivers steering wheel

 

[mmj_uk]

Is the forum on iPlayer yet?

Yes I've just watched it it's a good watch for conspiracy theorists.

It will be interesting to see if the BBC can dig up the straight line speeds for the Red Bulls to find out what RPM both drivers were told to run at.

 

[Duke]

I wonder why they had fuel problems & other teams didn't (that we know if any way)?

 

[hiroofheroes]

I wonder why they had fuel problems & other teams didn't (that we know if any way)?

Because they were fighting throughout the race at a much faster pace - Both Red Bull and McLaren had to start fuel saving towards the end.

As they were racing at a faster pace than predicted they used more fuel than predicted.

Simples.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Perhaps they miscalculated / didn't bank on pushing so hard behind the Red Bulls for as long as they did. At least that is what Brundle said..

 

[Demon]

I never said you had to swoon - just give credit where its due, which quite a few around here including you refuse to do where JB is concerned.

1) JB was conserving fuel since lap 20 , which I believe was well before LH was asked to conserve (and given that LH was RIGHT BEHIND Vettel for most of the race this indicates LH would have saved some fuel to start with), yet JB was still equaling their lap times and better in some circumstances

In regards to your Alguesari comment - of course he was able to given the fact that he was on BRAND new tyres with a lot less fuel than when all the times Im talking about where set - so its unsurprising that he got a fastest racing lap at that point, the point was that 20 or so laps after coming out of the pits on the same fuel load as the Red Bulls, in a racing situation JB set a number of consecutive fastest laps (not just a single one like Alguesari)

So what if LH was "in touch", he was also working his tyres a lot harder constantly battling - rather than conserving any grip that he had like JB, Im not saying one is right and one is wrong, but there are many ways to skin a cat, its not automatically correct the way the rules have been set to constantly push all your equipment the maximum for the whole race (when you need to be 2 - 3 seconds a lap faster to have a hope in over taking, or mistake being made)

Well JB himself said to the BBC directly that he was conserving from lap 20 yet LH hasnt said anything like that until much nearer the end....think what you like but to me that says a lot more for JB than it does for LH (given that JB was still very much in touch for the intervening 20 laps or so)

Its also not been mentioned that for some reason JB lost out drastically in the pitstops - he was I actually believe about 1s behind Vettel before the German pitted, JB then did a sequence of 2 fastest laps (upto that point) before his own stop - but when he came out of the pits he was 4 ish seconds off Vettel when by all rights he should have been ahead - given the fastest laps and Vettel's so so laps out of the pits

JB also seemed to be easily able to keep up with LH throughout the majority of the race - even though LH is such a god given blessing of a racer yet JB isnt, talk about double standards!!!

You seem to be hyper sensitive about language but Im not going to resort to hurling insults your way

What are you on, I said JB had a solid race, is that not credit? I like the bloke as much as the next man..

You just totally over-reacted with the FAIL comment, that can only be designed to ridicule, so why attack me in the first place, totally misplaced IMO..

The only person with a bee in their bonnet about LH appears to be yourself.. why the hate? I like both drivers, I just find JB doesn't drive in as ballesy a style as others, and that's why although I rate him, I prefer other drivers..
Which part of JB's race was outstanding?, where did I go so wrong with 'solid', where did I go so wrong with pointing out the obvious that he was largely deliberately or not, just following the leading 3, and not providing the same kind of pressure on the guy in front that others where?

I'll stick with Solid whether you like it or not, I saw nothing that was overly praise worthy over the other drivers in front of him, doesn't mean I hate him, am demeaning him or anything, Solid means he had a pretty decent and largely uneventful race.. Or was I watching the wrong GP?

 

[Vertigo]

With regards to McLaren, the way I read it is that, following the Red Bull incident, the team gave them both the order to "conserve fuel". This was probably both a genuine instruction to reduce consumption as they were now leading and no longer needed to keep up with the Red Bulls and a "coded" message to hold station until the end of the race, as the last thing they wanted was to "do a Red Bull".

Assuming (my own opinion of course) that the above is true, then it's possible Button decided he'd be opportunistic and pass Hamilton when he slowed slightly, before saving fuel himself. The way Hamilton threw his car up the inside at turn one just reinforces my opinion of this as it looked like a total "do or die" manouevre to me - Hamilton was [very annoyed] that Button hadn't "obeyed" the order to conserve fuel but instead used it as an opportunity to pass him and was basically determined to either get back past or take them both off, no other outcome would be acceptable to him as there was no way he was going to let Button steal the win from him under such circumstances.

 

[Demon]

With regards to McLaren, the way I read it is that, following the Red Bull incident, the team gave them both the order to "conserve fuel". This was probably both a genuine instruction to reduce consumption as they were now leading and no longer needed to keep up with the Red Bulls and a "coded" message to hold station until the end of the race, as the last thing they wanted was to "do a Red Bull".

Assuming (my own opinion of course) that the above is true, then it's possible Button decided he'd be opportunistic and pass Hamilton when he slowed slightly, before saving fuel himself. The way Hamilton threw his car up the inside at turn one just reinforces my opinion of this as it looked like a total "do or die" manouevre to me - Hamilton was [very annoyed] that Button hadn't "obeyed" the order to conserve fuel but instead used it as an opportunity to pass him and was basically determined to either get back past or take them both off, no other outcome would be acceptable to him as there was no way he was going to let Button steal the win from him under such circumstances.

I think that JB genuinely had conserved more fuel then LH, so I think he was going to be in the position to be right behind...

Although I can see how you could save some fuel from being behind a car, and both LH and JB where always behind a car (well up until the incident), but LH was defo being more aggressive, surely that meant more fuel consumption (and tyre wear) for him..

The thing is, surely two competitive drivers would pretty much ignore team orders when that close.. they haven't got to where they are by not being uber competitive..

I personally thought it was great, JB was due to plan or circumstance in an oppertunistic situation, and LH had spent many laps battling, and was just about pipped at the post.. That's what F1 should be like..

 

[sunama]

Immediately after Hamilton re-took the lead, he pulled away from Button, quickly. If Hamilton was "conserving fuel", why was he able to turn up his fuel mixture to allow him to pull away so quickly? Surely, he would've ran out of fuel?

My own belief was tha fuel was not an issue, but that code words were being used.

When Hamilton was up on the podium, for someone who just won their first GP of the season, Hamilton looked pretty annoyed.

 

[gord]

When Hamilton was up on the podium, for someone who just won their first GP of the season, Hamilton looked pretty annoyed.

I think that's a misinterpretation. Hamilton looked exactly as Brundle said it: "purposeful". Hamilton may have won the race, but he has come a long way and he isn't sitting atop the world championship ladder. There is work to be done yet and Hamilton knows it.

You saw his post race interview. Much more jolly when he was talking about the racing. I just think the race win made him reflect on where he is in this year and what he has to do.

 

[dalin80]

his post race interview seemed to suggest that he wasnt too happy that he got the win as a result of vettel being a pleb, would rather have took webber for it.