Turkey Grand Prix 2010, Istanbul Park - Race 7/19
- Thread starter Glaucus
- Start date
Perhaps because webber had been asked to back the engine down (save fuel), he couldn't understand why vettel was coming at him. You yourself seemed to think this was a team order.
Who knows, seems to me they now know they called it wrong and are looking for another way to take credit from webber.
Its all starting to remind me of wrong slagging off DC when Mika was the golden boy. Saying DC had brain fade then being humilated into an apology, which then through no fault of his own meant DC was forever on the sidelines.
Soldato
Hmmm...perhaps.
But if RedBull are going to give one driver preferential treatment over the other, it must be discussed before the race. Otherwise you will reach a point in the race where a driver is asked to move over, without any previous knowledge. This will almost certainly lead to confusion and possibly a crash.
When MS was at Ferrari, he was No.1. Barrichello, Irvine, Massa all new what the deal was. This meant there as no confusion or bemusement when the order was given during the race.
If you are going to have team orders, then it has to be discussed/decided before the race begins.
If those were team orders, Webber sounded bemused that Vettel was going to be given preferential treatment. If Vettel was being given preferential treatment, then is it his fault? Vettel would've been expecting preferential treatment (if that is what he was told) and when Webber didnt move out of the way, Vettel would've been thinking, "Why is Webber not moving out of the way?"
Sounds to me like RedBull management are to blame...not Vettel.
Last edited:
Bingo which is why webber was instructed to save fuel and it would appear, if the rumours are correct Vettel did the opposite for a straight line advantage that appeared a pretty large one.
Team orders without the other team member knowing. It would sense when you consider how miffed Horner and co where afters.
Soldato
The thing is,
Since fuel is so key now, and it's a big compromise regarding laptimes etc, I would assume that like for like they'll fuel both cars to the same formula, however, during the race, it's inevitable that fuel usage rates are going to vary depending on if you are following, if you are trying to challenge the guy in front, or if you are out in front...
So inevitably, one of the drivers is going to have a period of time he may have an advantage with a little spare fuel meaning he can turn the wick up (or not turn it down) for a period of time.. Surely it would be wrong to treat both drivers the same and tell them both to turn the wick down/up the same amount at the same time, knowing one of them actually doesn't need to..
The same seemed to happen with Lewis/Jenson, is there any doubt that Hamilton's race was slightly different to Jensons, In interviews, he explicitly said he was given 'targets' and was surprised to see Jenson cruise up behind him, since he said this in the context of his targets, the implication is clear, and that is the team mates where on different fuel saving strategies that no doubt are again just a natural part of the variables of the race...
So team orders etc may not be so easy to prove/imply, because they wheren't the only team where fuel saving caused team mates to be in a similar situation..
Just a thought..
Since fuel is so key now, and it's a big compromise regarding laptimes etc, I would assume that like for like they'll fuel both cars to the same formula, however, during the race, it's inevitable that fuel usage rates are going to vary depending on if you are following, if you are trying to challenge the guy in front, or if you are out in front...
So inevitably, one of the drivers is going to have a period of time he may have an advantage with a little spare fuel meaning he can turn the wick up (or not turn it down) for a period of time.. Surely it would be wrong to treat both drivers the same and tell them both to turn the wick down/up the same amount at the same time, knowing one of them actually doesn't need to..
The same seemed to happen with Lewis/Jenson, is there any doubt that Hamilton's race was slightly different to Jensons, In interviews, he explicitly said he was given 'targets' and was surprised to see Jenson cruise up behind him, since he said this in the context of his targets, the implication is clear, and that is the team mates where on different fuel saving strategies that no doubt are again just a natural part of the variables of the race...
So team orders etc may not be so easy to prove/imply, because they wheren't the only team where fuel saving caused team mates to be in a similar situation..
Just a thought..
Strangely, Horner was p'd off that Webber didnt move aside. This would indicate that Webber had been given an "order", to move aside, but failed to follow it.
But then Webber was also p'd off that Vettel came from nowhere and wasnt told to back off.
Something doesnt quite add up.
If it was discussed previously, but Webber failed to do what he was supposed to, then this would explain why Horner was p'd off.
If it wasn't discussed previously and Webber failed to move over, then Horner has no right to be angry, as it was not previously discussed.
Something just isnt adding up.
But then Webber was also p'd off that Vettel came from nowhere and wasnt told to back off.
Something doesnt quite add up.
If it was discussed previously, but Webber failed to do what he was supposed to, then this would explain why Horner was p'd off.
If it wasn't discussed previously and Webber failed to move over, then Horner has no right to be angry, as it was not previously discussed.
Something just isnt adding up.
Soldato
My, aren't your powers of deduction doing well today? Jesus wept.
Aaaaaaaaaaanyway, if RBR have any more than three braincells to play with they'll talk about this behind closed doors and leave us plebs in the dark about what the hell happened. No good can come of them discussing this out in the open. They've done enough damage with the interviews that they've given already.
My initial thoughts haven't changed one bit from seeing the crash live through to now. 100% Vettel's fault. They both have kamikaze form, 'for sure', but Vettel shouldn't have been jinking to the right at that point on the straight unless he actually planned to take both himself and Webber out of the race. And this isn't quite the time in the season to be doing that sort of thing. You only do that when you're trying to seal a title win, not when you're merely trying to get back on terms with a team-mate who's blown you back to Narnia with new-found pace two races on the bounce.
Didnt Webber move slightly to the left (into the Vettel's rear wheel), where in previous laps, he was moving to the right?
IMO Webber defended his position a little too aggressively. Vettel of course was aggressive, too. As such, both drivers are to blame. You cannot lay the blame, 100% on Vettel.
Personally think thats quite a bit more obvious though than the RB issue -
1) Lewis was constantly jinking left and right and trying to get past Webber/Vettel, hence using the full capacity of the car and tyres
2) JB obviously had the same pace and was just keeping station a couple of seconds back (if he didnt have the pace then he would have consistantly lost time lap after lap), but as he was driving a lot more smoothly with no jinking and acc/braking - his fuel/tyre usage would have been a lot more constant and managable
(without even considering this discrepancy as to when each McLaren driver was given the low fuel warning) - and with JB's experience at managing the car in general I dont think the team would need to be quite so speciific with him whereas Lewis probably needed to be reigned in more and have more precise information
(in one sense its not totally unlike the MS radio message about the few mm of rain expected - MS doesnt have the experience on the new tyres so he didnt really know what he was being told, until it was explicitly stated )
Last edited:
i shall drive in a straight line aggressively. wait. what?
Video footage from both cars and form other sources clearly shows webber holding station and then turning slightly right, while Vettel veerd sharply right.
as you can see both drivers were slowly migrating right down that section of the straight vettel had several feeet between him and the verge when he decided to pull sharp right at no point did webber go left.
and it looks like vettel was only 1/3rd a car length in front at that point as well as being well off the racing line so by no means was it a guaranteed overtake.
Soldato
Do me a favour, sunama. Look at it again.
Webber is travelling on a consistent trajectory. Vettel turned to the right despite being in no way clear of Webber. He was trying to bully him into backing off and surrendering the lead, and spectacularly misjudged it.
as you can see both drivers were slowly migrating right down that section of the straight vettel had several feeet between him and the verge when he decided to pull sharp right at no point did webber go left.
I see.
So Vettel was "making room" for himself, for the up-coming corner and Webber was refusing to yield an inch, even though he had plenty of room to his right. Oh well...for me it remains a racing incident.
As Vettel was moving ever closer to Webber, most drivers would've taken appropriate action to move out to the right, to avoid a collision.
I guess this was the reason why the FIA/Stewards never took any action. I think it was J.Herbert who was advising the Stewards and he knows a fair bit about motor racing.
Racing incident for me...nothing else.
Soldato
I mean this light heartedly, I care not for the detail of why the drivers had different fuel saving requirements, it is obvious there where many many reasons this occurs, some obvious, some not so obvious, the point was, it's normal for drivers to have a difference, so when assessing the claims of conspiracy at RB, there is at least some reasoning behind why Seb/Mark would legitimately get in the inevitable situation where one would have more fuel and therefore more speed then the other, hence why cry of foul play needs slightly tempering.
Oh, and I'm flattered you keep picking up on my posts, but give up, I already like JB, I just don't love him blindly..
It is OK to like more then 1 driver you know.. (or console for that matter
)
Soldato
Watching the replays and on-board footage, it's quite obvious MW is not drifting right towards the racing line, if there is any movement to the right by him, it's fractional..
But of course that's no excuse for Seb, he instigated the contact, but when you have two unyielding drivers, the risk level increases massively...
Notice how both Jenson, and his much worse performing in all situations team-mate (
) 'yielded' at critical moments in the overtake, it could have easily ended in tears had they acting as the RB drivers did..So true. Both McLaren drivers could've taken eachother off, if they had the "Thou Shall Not Yield" attitude of Webber and Vettel.Notice how both Jenson, and his much worse performing in all situations team-mate (
Yes, Vettel should not have moved into Webber so abruptly like he did. But Webber had plenty of room to his right and when he saw Vettel moving into him, he should've moved a little to the right. It's almost as if Webber had closed his eyes and thought to himself, "The car on my left is a figment of my imagination and does not actually exist."
Webber has to take his share of the blame.
- Joined
- 30 Jul 2006
- Posts
- 12,130
Good points there sunama
Soldato
With them being so close I don't think he could react to Vettel as the reaction time is longer than the move I think.
Webber thought I will keep this line, Vettel has to brake earlier as he is on a dirty part of the track and I will retake the place on the next corner.