Turkey Grand Prix 2010, Istanbul Park - Race 7/19

If at the end of the year, Hamilton becomes WDC, with RedBull drivers in joint 2nd (just like McLaren in 2007), everybody will be saying that Horner is a bad boss, as he was unable to win with the best car.

By giving preferential treatment to one driver, he is making sure that the WDC comes to RedBull. And more than likely if their drivers continue to get 1-2s, RedBull will win the constructors title, too.

Horner is a smart inidividual and he knows that the way things are heading, his team may not win the WDC, if his drivers are consistently taking points off eachother. The time has obviously come where RedBull feel that they have to back 1 driver. That driver is Vettel.

If the "story" is true, then Vettel had every right to expect that Webber was going to move out of the way. This also explains why he was so p'd off - he would've been told on the radio, "Webber will let you through, go through." (or a code phrase). Then when he went to overtake, Webber resists the overtake, which ends up in a collision.
 
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ShakenNstirred said:
exactly, why should he move over for vettel when he`s the one winning and leading the championship.

if vettel hadnt moved over there wouldnt have been a crash, its as simple as that
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You have to ask Horner/RedBull that question. In any case, Vettel is not to blame as he would've been told on the radio that Webber was going to let him through.
 
MrLOL said:
breaking the rules ?

no team orders allowed. If this is true, they should get a hefty penalty in order for similar punishments given to other teams to seem fair.
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Indeed, team orders are against the rules. However, team orders have been a part of F1 for as long as I can remember. The only difference is that after they were banned, teams couldnt be so open about team orders.

You must remember that the "team" has to do what is right for the "team" and for their sponsors (their paymasters). If you have the best car on the grid, it would be criminal to not win both titles and have both your drivers taking points off one another. The sponsors could well ask Horner the reason why he has 2 drivers, taking points off one another, to which Horner has to come up with an answer. And "no", he can't say, "because team orders aren't permitted". That wouldnt wash with a sponsor paying millions of pounds/dollars per year. Remember, sponsors all want to be associated with winners (who doesn't), so inorder to secure larger sponsorship deals in 2011, it would make sense for RedBull to win both titles this year.

The big mistake was by the race engineer who didn't tell Webber what the plan was. That guy should be reprimanded as he didn't follow orders (assuming the story is true). At the end of the day, you are working as part of a team and even if you don't agree with some decisions, if it helps the "team" then you do what needs to be done and what you are paid for.
 
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sunama said:
The big mistake was by the race engineer who didn't tell Webber what the plan was. That guy should be reprimanded as he didn't follow orders (assuming the story is true). At the end of the day, you are working as part of a team and even if you don't agree with some decisions, if it helps the "team" then you do what needs to be done and what you are paid for.
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The guy should be knighted for standing by his morals, if more people stood up for what they believe is right the world would be a better place, if the team reprimand him over this it will show us all what a bunch of ***** they are.

None of it changes the fact that Vettel caused a collision when all he had to do was keep his line.
 
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So..lets not have any more radio to the pit wall from now on, only for tires
they will have to fill the car and hope it does not run out of fuel.

It would make F1 a bit more fun and NO cheating on the track ;)
 
mmj_uk said:
The guy should be knighted for standing by his morals, if more people stood up for what they believe is right the world would be a better place, if the team reprimand him over this it will show us all what a bunch of ***** they are.
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When Horner told the engineer, "Tell Webber to let Vettel through." The engineer should've either done what he was told or told Horner, "sorry boss, I can't do that." Had he done this, then what you saying would be correct.

However, by keeping quiet, he put Webber and Vettel's lives at risk. Webber thought he was fighting for position. Vettel thought Webber had been ordered to let him through. Horner thought the order had been given.

Due to the engineer not following a simple order, it has let the cat out of the bag (ie. that RedBull give team-orders), it contributed to the crash, it allowed McLaren to get a 1-2, it cost RedBull a 1-2 and it has caused RedBull a serious PR problem.

For the above reasons the guy has to be reprimanded as his actions (or lack of), has probably cost RedBull 100s of 1000s of pounds/dollars.

I know that some people like a cavallier approach to life, but sometimes you have to do the sensible thing (not necessarily the right thing) and follow team orders. If you have an issue with it, then take it up with the team at a later date. This goes for any job, not just F1.

mmj_uk said:
None of it changes the fact that Vettel caused a collision when all he had to do was keep his line.
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Vettel was told on the radio that the guy ahead of you is going to let you through. Vettel thought, "fine". Then before he realised that Webber was not allowing him to overtake and was fighting for the position, it was too late.
 
dalin80 said:
nonsense, vettel was the one taking the risks by trying a stupid move, if the engineer had done what he was told he would mearly be an accomplice to breaking one of the big rules.
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You'll notice that I never said that he should do what he was told.

I said he could either do what he was told.

OR, if he didnt want to do it, it was his duty to tell Horner, "sorry boss, I can't do that."

At this point it is now Horner's choice as to how he wishes to get the message to Webber, to move over. If the message never gets sent, Vettel is never going to try such and ambitious overtaking manouvre as he will never be told, "Webber is going to allow you to overtake".

By doing neither, he endangered the drivers' lives AND has cost RedBull a whole lot of money and egg on their face.
 
I think the whole team orders or not comes down to exactly what was said and when.

Being told before the race or in the early stages to let Vettel through under any circumstance is very different to if they saw Vettel tearing up behind Webber on that straight and shouted down the pit wall 'tell Webber to move over' to prevent them taking a chance against each other.

Very very different situations and atm, afaik, we have no idea which is closer to the truth.
 
sunama said:
Vettel did nothing wrong.

He was told by his team that he will be given preferential treatment. During the race, he was told that Webber will let you through. When he went to overtake, Webber didnt let him through.

This would explain why Horner was angry and blaming Webber (for not following orders, which Horner thought had been given) and Vettel was thinking to himself, "Why the hell did Webber not move over?"

The drivers are not at fault.
Horner is not at fault, as he has the right to give preferential treatment to whomever he wishes - he is in charge.
Webber's engineer is at fault, as he did not relay the message to Webber, asking him to let Vettel through.
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Vettel did nothing wrong? He was the one holding the steering wheel and decided to turn right when there was still a car along side. That moment of stupidity had nothing to do with anyone on the pit wall unless there is a remote control back there.

And as for team orders for preferential treatment in only the 7th GP of the year that is plain daft. It only takes a couple of poor results for Vettel (and he does appear to be able to break his car regularly) before that it all wasted. They should wait until the end and see if one of their drivers is in a fight with another team before doing that.
 
Alibaba99 said:
And as for team orders for preferential treatment in only the 7th GP of the year that is plain daft.
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Clearly Horner and the big bosses at RedBull have decided that like when MS was at Ferrari/Bennetton, Vettel must be given No.1 status, right from the get go.

Given the success that Ferrari and Bennetton had, using the above strategy of having a No.1 and No.2 driver (ie. not equal status), it is difficult to argue against it.
 
Is sunama Sebastian Vettel's publicist? :p

sunama said:
Vettel was told on the radio that the guy ahead of you is going to let you through. Vettel thought, "fine". Then before he realised that Webber was not allowing him to overtake and was fighting for the position, it was too late.
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Another two seconds and he was through, there was absolutely no need to veer to the side and into Webber like he did.

Even if Webber had received the message from his engineer there was no guarantee he would have complied, infact he might have even put up more resistance. Would you give up first position to your nearest championship rival after working your ******** off all weekend to stay ahead of him?
 
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mmj_uk said:
Is sunama Sebastian Vettel's publicist? :p
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Nope. :p

mmj_uk said:
Even if Webber had received the message from his engineer there was no guarantee he would have complied, infact he might have even put up more resistance. Would you give up first position to your nearest championship rival after working your ******** off all weekend to stay ahead of him?
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Had he not compllied, then the fault would lie purely on Webber, as he took it upon himself to defy orders from his immediate boss.

Remember, F1 is no different from an office or other organisation for which people work.

If you were asked by your manager to do something, which fell within your duties as an employee, would you not comply? If not, why not? And if you failed to comply, would you not expect to be disciplined in some way?

People who work for a living (like Mark Webber's engineer), generally have a boss and have signed a contract that they will do their best to comply and follow the orders of their boss. This is nothing out of the ordinary.

If it was a footballer, who was not doing the job the manager has requested, on the pitch, he would be subbed. There would be no arguments and no cavallier attitudes. The footballer is expected to do as he is told, irrespective of his own opinion of the instruction he has been given. Why is F1 any different?
 
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