Turkey Grand Prix 2010, Istanbul Park - Race 7/19

as an independent observer can I observe that sunama should stop digging.....

Anyway RBR are trying to persuade Vettell to sign a multi year contract so they have to be nice to him.

I think he needs to retake his driving test though, you know, mirror signal manouver.
 
sunama said:
If the "story" is true, then Vettel had every right to expect that Webber was going to move out of the way. This also explains why he was so p'd off - he would've been told on the radio, "Webber will let you through, go through." (or a code phrase). Then when he went to overtake, Webber resists the overtake, which ends up in a collision.
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A) he does not resist, he just does not yield. If he yielded FIA would more than likely investigate team orders. Vettle moved into him on a straight, absolutely no need at that point. Regardless of orders.

B) team orders are against the rules.

I also think if team orders are going to be illegal, any radio comms saying fuel critical or similar, should be be looked at. It would be very easy to tell from the telemetry and rule out cheating.
 
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sunama said:
Had he not compllied, then the fault would lie purely on Webber, as he took it upon himself to defy orders from his immediate boss.

Remember, F1 is no different from an office or other organisation for which people work.
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Incorrect if you are asked to do something that is against the rules or in the place of work law.

So if your boss asked you to go to Tesco and steal £500 worth of booze would you do it because your boss told you to?

No you wouldn't and asking Webber to move over for vettel is equally a rule break.

I agree they sign a contract and have to do as asked but not regarding team orders because they are banned.
 
You obviously missed the parts where sunama repeatedly mentioned that if you are asked to do something you should not or can not, you should say so. "Sorry boss, I can't do that, it's against the rules", "Sorry boss, I won't steal, it's against the law"

Not just sit there and say nothing.
 
comms are monitored, so it can not be said over the radio in such clear terms, as such webber can not say that's against the rules. As that is telling teh FIA all they need to punish.

Sunama is just blind on this one. There was no need for vettle to come across, regardless what was said on the radio.
 
AcidHell2 said:
comms are monitored, so it can not be said over the radio in such clear terms, as such webber can not say that's against the rules. As that is telling teh FIA all they need to punish.
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Webber would never have needed to say that, as we never got to that point. The blame is on his engineer, who didnt pass on the message. Not Webber.

Had the message been passed on to Webber and Webber decided to dis-obey the order...thats a whole different story for Horner and his bosses to take up with Webber himself.

AcidHell2 said:
Sunama is just blind on this one. There was no need for vettle to come across, regardless what was said on the radio.
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Vettel was indeed over exhuberent when he attempted to push Webber aside, but at this stage, Vettel would've been of the understanding that the guy in front of him is going to move over...in similar fashion to that of a back-marker. When Webber stuck to his line, Vettel got the shock of his life and after retiring was totally p'd off, as he felt that Webber had not followed team orders (note: Webber was never given the order, so he had no intention of allowing Vettel to overtake him).

RedBull know more about what happened that day than any of us. They all seem to think that Vettel is completely in the clear. The Stewards/FIA who have observed this whole incident also think there is no case to answer. Now unless you guys know more than RedBull and have greater knowledge than the Stewards/FIA, I can't see what else there is to add.
 
you keep forgetting team orders are against the rules, The engineer can't not say let vettel through. The best he can say is fuel's critical and save it.

It was 100% vettels fault, there can be no blame on webber or the engineer. Just vettle.

As far as I'm aware FIA did not even investigate it, probably due to it being team mates.

Vettel did not get the shock of his life, webber held his line, a perfect normal thing to do.
 
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JRS said:
Not for the first time sunama, your logic escapes me. When did turning into a car that's alongside you stop being 'wrong'? I seem to recall another German driver who got villified for doing that sort of thing, now what was his name....
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The difference between MS's antics and Vettel, is that Vettel was told that the "other guy" is going to let you through. Vettel was under the impression that Webber knew the deal.

And with regards to one driver turning into another - this happens in a high percentage of overtakes, especially off the start line. Hamilton does one these manouvres in almost every race. The idea is that the other driver has to respond and move away. In order to get away with this though, the driver who is doing the "bullying" has to be in front, which Vettel was.

In any case, we shall have to agree to disagree on this one gents. I'm in total agreement with RB/FIA/Stewards - Vettel, nor Webber did nothing wrong.
 
Difference is, Hamilton judges the distances such that he doesn't end up wrecking both his own race and that of the guy he's trying to get by. Alright, he occasionally clips his wing on a tyre, and maybe once has actually damaged the car he was getting by (Rubens, Brazil '09, popped his tyre). Vettel simply made a very poor attempt at bullying Webber out of the way, and then acted all surprised when it went horribly wrong.

He's rapidly turning into Kyle Busch. A damned shame, because he was a really likeable guy up until this.
 
It seems that "team orders" are seriously messing races up and potentially causing crashes.

It doesnt surprise me that Hamilton would've been told that Button wouldn't pass if he backed off. The order was given to "save fuel" and its pretty obvious what that really means. Also, after the race finished, for someone who had just won his first race, Hamilton looked a little p'd off (and no, this is not the sort of p'd off you would get by watching the RedBulls take eachother off).

But anyway, teams have got to learn to discuss team orders and tactics before the race begins and code words must be made clearer, otherwise I can see many more "incidents" involving team-mates who were not aware of a specific team order. Remember, the McLarens could also have taken eachother off the track at Turkey.
 
It's a shame they missed out Lewis's radio after Jenson passed Lewis that really would have been interesting.......swear laden no doubt but interesting!

But it's there in black and white that Lewis noted Jenson closing and asked the team if he'd overtake him and it appears they said no........then he did!

Besides how could Mclaren say that he wouldn't overtake unless they'd told him not too thus giving team orders out?

Going to be an interesting next few races as the top 2 teams driver relationships appear to be breaking down!
 
sunama said:
It seems that "team orders" are seriously messing races up and potentially causing crashes.

But anyway, teams have got to learn to discuss team orders and tactics before the race begins and code words must be made clearer, otherwise I can see many more "incidents" involving team-mates who were not aware of a specific team order. Remember, the McLarens could also have taken eachother off the track at Turkey.
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Well I've been watching F1 for 10 years now and to be honest, I hope to see more incidents as it makes the races more interesting to watch. I was delighted to see Button pass Hamilton and Hamilton take it back again, as I was for seeing Vettel attempt to overtake Webber. Team orders are **** and bad for racing, simple. In my opinion of course...
 
JRS said:
Difference is, Hamilton judges the distances such that he doesn't end up wrecking both his own race and that of the guy he's trying to get by. Alright, he occasionally clips his wing on a tyre, and maybe once has actually damaged the car he was getting by (Rubens, Brazil '09, popped his tyre). Vettel simply made a very poor attempt at bullying Webber out of the way, and then acted all surprised when it went horribly wrong.

He's rapidly turning into Kyle Busch. A damned shame, because he was a really likeable guy up until this.
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I agree with this. But don't you think vettel is more of a Carl Edwards(Atlanta 2010) then Busch :D
 
sunama said:
Had he not compllied, then the fault would lie purely on Webber, as he took it upon himself to defy orders from his immediate boss.

Remember, F1 is no different from an office or other organisation for which people work.

If you were asked by your manager to do something, which fell within your duties as an employee, would you not comply? If not, why not? And if you failed to comply, would you not expect to be disciplined in some way?

People who work for a living (like Mark Webber's engineer), generally have a boss and have signed a contract that they will do their best to comply and follow the orders of their boss. This is nothing out of the ordinary.

If it was a footballer, who was not doing the job the manager has requested, on the pitch, he would be subbed. There would be no arguments and no cavallier attitudes. The footballer is expected to do as he is told, irrespective of his own opinion of the instruction he has been given. Why is F1 any different?
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I suppose based on that logic you don't think Piquet Jr shares any of the blame for the events of Singapore '08? Maybe you should work for the FIA. ;)

I don't see how you can blame anyone but Vettel, he was given enough room, probably could've completed the overtake anyway, but chooses to ram into Webber. The radio doesn't matter, even if Horner came on the radio to Vettel saying "go on lad, give him a good ram", the fault would still be with the guy controlling the car.

Even if this message was passed to Webber, and even if he complied, what do you suggest he should have done? Go onto the grass to make sure Vettel had the perfect line? Or give him enough room for them to safely drive next to each other and to make the overtake look genuine.
 
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