Turkey Grand Prix 2010, Istanbul Park - Race 7/19

xen_ said:
I suppose based on that logic you don't think Piquet Jr shares any of the blame for the events of Singapore '08? Maybe you should work for the FIA. ;)
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Allegedly, Piquet was the guy who came up with the initial idea. He knew exactly what he was doing. Piquet had to share some of the blame.

xen_ said:
I don't see how you can blame anyone but Vettel, he was given enough room,
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Was he? Webber was holding his line. Vettel had a few inches to his left. He had a few inches to his right. Webber had a few feet of room on his right.

xen_ said:
Even if this message was passed to Webber, and even if he complied, what do you suggest he should have done? Go onto the grass to make sure Vettel had the perfect line?
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Webber was not anywhere near the grass. From what I remember, he had about a car's width to his right.

You're also forgetting that as far as Vettel was concerned, he was supposed to just drive past Webber, unchallenged. He didnt expect Webber to hold his line and defend his position. He was told on the radio, that Webber had been told to let him through.

We shall have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm siding with the FIA/Stewards/RedBull - Vettel did nothing wrong.
 
Stormrider said:
Turkey race edit is up and is very interesting that they draw attention to the team telling Lewis that Jenson would not pass him if he backs off.
Can't make out Webbers comments after the crash though

http://www.formula1.com/video/race_edits.html
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It sounds like "I can continue, I can continue".

Also to add to the argument:

Subsequently, the team stated that Vettel had been able to run his Renault engine at full strength for longer than Webber as he had saved more fuel earlier in the race. However, the German only had enough extra fuel to run one more lap before he would have been forced to turn down his power plant. This meant that the 22-year-old would only have one realistic chance to snatch victory.
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So the excuse that "a faster Vettel should be given track position" also falls flat on its face because half a lap later he would've been the one holding Webber up given how the weekend went, so if both Red Bulls would be lapping near enough the same a lap later what did it matter which order they were in?

Remember also that they gave Vettel pit priority so that he could jump Hamilton, that alone gifted Vettel a good few seconds over Webber.

If I was Webber I'd be feeling pretty betrayed by the team, though it's probably best that he doesn't do an Alonso and throw his toys out of the pram over it as it will only hurt his championship hopes further.
 
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sunama said:
Was he? Webber was holding his line. Vettel had a few inches to his left. He had a few inches to his right. Webber had a few feet of room on his right.
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Well yes that is "enough room", its not as if the cars were going to expand and take up more room, I suggest you look at the piece the BBC did on the F1 forum on iplayer, it shows Webber judging the amount of room perfectly.

sunama said:
You're also forgetting that as far as Vettel was concerned, he was supposed to just drive past Webber, unchallenged. He didnt expect Webber to hold his line and defend his position. He was told on the radio, that Webber had been told to let him through.
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What has that got to do with turning into Webber, maybe as he approached the corner before that straight he may have thought Webber would not put up much resistance, but when they were side by side, with Vettel only just edging ahead he wouldn't of thought that Webber was going to make his car dissapear into thin air when the pulls to the right, I don't see how expecting Webber to yield before attempting the overtake is an excuse for ramming into him when he didn't yield (but left enough space) during the failed overtake.

sunama said:
I'm siding with the FIA/Stewards/RedBull - Vettel did nothing wrong.
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I must've missed where the FIA and the stewards declared that they felt Vettel did nothing wrong, as far as I know they haven't said anything, just left it as a racing incident - which doesn't necessarily mean no one was to blame. And Redbull are hardly impartial in this so they aren't going to **** off Vettel, I assume you side with Vettel on this one too. :p
 
Come on guys, I told you that, we shall have to agree to disagree on this. If you really want a long-winded explanation, then let me know and we shall go into depth of what Vettel did and how Webber would've most likely responded if he was told to yield to Vettel.

Otherwise, lets just look forward to next weekend, which could well see Hamilton do something special.....I hope.
 
utajoker said:
how can you argue for 7 days on whether or not Vettel drove into Webber when he clearly did.
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utajoker said:
how can you argue for 7 days on whether or not Vettel drove into Webber when he clearly did.
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LOL.

I'm not arguing. I've made my point. I can elaborate further, but only if you really really wish me to do so.

Otherwise, we all need to accept that different people have different opinions and differing views and sometimes, its just better to agree to disagree. ;)
 
sunama - just please answer me this one question without obfuscation or resorting to tired old tropes like 'oh well, we'll have to agree to disagree'.


  • How is a crash resulting from Seb Vettel making a right-turn into Mark Webber on a straight anything other than Vettel's fault, given Vettel had at most a third of his car out in front? Forget the 'team orders'. Forget their respective places in the Red Bull Racing hierarchy. Forget the non-intervention of the race stewards. How was that crash anything other than Vettel's fault?
 
JRS said:
sunama - just please answer me this one question without obfuscation or resorting to tired old tropes like 'oh well, we'll have to agree to disagree'.


  • How is a crash resulting from Seb Vettel making a right-turn into Mark Webber on a straight anything other than Vettel's fault, given Vettel had at most a third of his car out in front? Forget the 'team orders'. Forget their respective places in the Red Bull Racing hierarchy. Forget the non-intervention of the race stewards. How was that crash anything other than Vettel's fault?
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You cant simplfy it down that much.

He was told webber would yield, ergo he tried to push him to make him move.

Webber didnt. Its not as straight cut as "vettel was the one that moved so its his fault"

Its a bit like simplfying the whole reason for WWI breaking out as being that Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand got shot. Theres so much more to it than that.
 
There really isn't, either:

Vettel expected Webber to fight and just plain moved into webber

OR

Vettel expected to Webber yield and was too dumb to realise after being squeezed along the side of the track that Webber wasn't yield and moved into him anyway.

Either of those two options still result in it being purely Vettel's fault frankly.
 
All Vettel had to do was look in his mirror before turning, hands up how many on here change lanes without looking into their mirrors? even if you know it's your mothers in the other lane and you know she'd happily give way you're still going to make sure you don't run into her.
 
MrLOL said:
You cant simplfy it down that much.
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Yes, I can. I believe I just did.

MrLOL said:
He was told webber would yield, ergo he tried to push him to make him move.
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If he was led to believe that Webber would yield, he wouldn't have felt the need to barge in on him would he? He obviously didn't trust the message, felt the need to assert himself, and engaged in a spot of utterly spectacular misjudgement.

MrLOL said:
Webber didnt. Its not as straight cut as "vettel was the one that moved so its his fault"
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Yes, it's exactly as 'straight cut' as that. When you turn hard right into the side of someone, it's generally understood that the resulting collision is your fault.

Unless your name starts with 's' and ends in 'unama' of course.

MrLOL said:
Its a bit like simplfying the whole reason for WWI breaking out as being that Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand got shot. Theres so much more to it than that.
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Interesting that you go for a war metaphor there, given what the Red Bull camp is likely to be for the rest of this season :)
 
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JRS said:
Yes, it's exactly as 'straight cut' as that. When you turn hard right into the side of someone, it's generally understood that the resulting collision is your fault.

Unless your name starts with 's' and ends in 'unama' of course.
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I wouldn't say he turned "hard right". He did move into Webber, but Webber (had he been given the order to yield and followed it), would definitely have moved away and given Vettel room. (this is something we see on a regular basis when cars overtake eachother off the startline).

Was Vettel aggressive? Yes.
Did he cause the collision by himself? No.
Was he part of the reason why the collision occurred? Yes, but then so was Webber's engineer.

Had the "order" been passed on to Webber and Webber followed it through, I believe that Webber would not have stuck to his line so rigidly. He would've lifted OR he would've moved to the right hand side of the track AND he would not have defended his position (which he was clearly seen to doing, before the collision).

What is key here, is that "order". I'm positive that had it been passed on to Webber, that would've been the difference between Webber yielding immediately to give RedBull another 1-2 as opposed to the 2 drivers fighting for the same piece of tarmac and ending in collision.
 
sunama said:
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sunama, if Vettel was sure that a team order (or something similar) was at work then he shouldn't have felt the need to turn into Webber to make him yield. And especially not turn into Webber before being even close to getting clear. And also especially not when Vettel was already holding the inside line for the next corner - had he not moved to the right he would have gotten by at the entry to that corner and been free and clear to take the lead in a Red Bull 1-2.

But he obviously didn't think that an 'order' was in play. Instead he felt that he had to try and bully Webber into backing off (which could well have seen Hamilton then sail by and probably Button as well, or caused an accident involving Webber and at least one McLaren). Webber didn't move his car to the left, off the line it was taking down to the turn, so presumably Vettel simply got the maneuver to the right completely wrong. Ergo, crash his fault.

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Simples!

Would be nice to hear what CS||nuTs has to say about it all, but I expect RBR have ensured that no loose cannons go around blurting out anything interesting :D
 
I don't think we should really put Nuts in that position as its pretty obvious he has been told not to give out any insider information regarding this matter, which is fair enough.
 
sunama said:
I don't think we should really put Nuts in that position as its pretty obvious he has been told not to give out any insider information regarding this matter, which is fair enough.
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Hey sunama, something we agree on for practically the first time in the thread....
 
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