Turkish Grand Prix 2011, Istanbul Park - Race 4/19

Vertigo · 8 May 2011 at 15:54

utajoker said:
yup, but what can you do, they cant penalise them for having a faster car.

just got to hope the other teams can have some breakthroughs and catch up.

Oh yeah it's not Red Bull's nor Vettel's fault they're faster and I'm sure the other teams are doing everything in their power to catch up.

I just find it annoying how all the commentators and journalists go on and on and on about how "exciting" this season is when the championship is anything but, almost as if they're doing it deliberately, hoping no one will notice that Vettel is walking away with the championship.

Last year may not have produced such exciting races in terms of overtaking or wheel-to-wheel action, but the championship itself was far more interesting.

Tweaker · 8 May 2011 at 15:57

I think in 2009, a lot of people were excited in the first 6 or 7 races, with Brawn dominating. It was exciting for most because it was a failing team, limited budget with 2 drivers who were working for a rookies pay. I think in the situation like red bull, a huge budget, the best engineers with 2 good drivers, red bull dont excite people as much.

Glaucus · 8 May 2011 at 15:58

A few things

1) tyre unpredictability has gone. With the exception of mclaren. Everyone now knows more stops the better and if if races continue like this the hards do not last long enough for any mix up in strategy. Which was so hoped for.
2) one of the rbr mechanics said (and I agree with) saving an extra set of tyres for the race isn't needed. They degrade with time and only have 1 lap of use in qualifying. What makes the difference is having more pit stops, scrubbed tyres or not.
3) removal of double diffuser has worked wonder on reducing dirty air and closer following and more over taking over all of the lap.
4) DRS is far to easy, pointless and is still an unfair device. FIA panicked and threw to many new rules into one season. Rather than just sticking with what they knew, that removing dirty air drastically helps.

Irish_Tom · 8 May 2011 at 15:59

Have to agree with Vertigo about the championship but the individual races are more exciting. What I'd like to see is the championship as close as last year and the races as exciting as this year.

It's not RBR's fault that no one can match them but it is very frustrating as a spectator.

dannyjo22 · 8 May 2011 at 16:04

AcidHell2 said:
3) removal of double diffuser has worked wonder on reducing dirty air and closer following and more over taking over all of the lap.
4) DRS is far to easy, pointless and is still an unfair device. FIA panicked and threw to many new rules into one season. Rather than just sticking with what they knew, that removing dirty air drastically helps.

At Turkey yes I agree, but this is a good layout for overtaking. That is probably not true for most of the circuits on the grid.

DRS isn't allowing a slower car to beat a faster car. It's just getting the faster car past with the minimum of fuss.

I'm still open to the idea, the angle needs adjusting but they are just gathering data for the device.

Glaucus · 8 May 2011 at 16:05

What's the point in that. Letting a car pass is not racing. What you are saying is you just what qualifying and that is it.

They've been following much closer in all races this year.

CaptainRAVE · 8 May 2011 at 16:12

Quite enjoyed todays race - didn't like how easy DRS made it all though.

Vettel must be laughing how everyone behind him keep taking points off each other.

I did enjoy how little airtime RBR got - the focus was still on McLaren and Ferrari and the fights behind.

Glaucus · 8 May 2011 at 16:15

Yeah the director was good at showing the action which is a start, but he also kept cutting to other action, but was to late and missed it. Thus missing both pieces of action.

It is isnt it, no one is being constant behind him, all scribbling over points.

dannyjo22 · 8 May 2011 at 16:16

AcidHell2 said:
They've been following much closer in all races this year.

And yet this is the first race we have seen a lot of passing outside the DRS zone, despite having Kers to use at differing times for an advantage depending on whose used it where.

I think no DRS would have worked here. I'm not convinced it would be any better than before at the other tracks this year.

Glaucus · 8 May 2011 at 16:19

Which again comes back to you want time trailing not racing. DRS can never. Be acceptable in races, it is incompatible, due to the way it works.

We've seen a fair amount of over taking all yeah and not just in DRS zone. Just because some races are less than others, doesn't mean you need DRS to keep overtaking unto several a lap. There is no skill or enjoyment derived by a DRS over take, it is utterly boring to watch and spoils the true racing.

Setroc · 8 May 2011 at 16:24

dannyjo22 said:
And yet this is the first race we have seen a lot of passing outside the DRS zone, despite having Kers to use at differing times for an advantage depending on whose used it where.

I think no DRS would have worked here. I'm not convinced it would be any better than before at the other tracks this year.

I agree, and this is not even mentioning the fact that DRS helps to allow cars to follow more closely in the first place. It was when you were within one second of the car in front in previous seasons where the dirty air affected you the most, and you'd see it so often that faster cars would get closer and closer to the car in front until they got within that one second window, and they would stop getting closer, even though they had previously been 3-4 tenths quicker or even more than that at some circuits per lap. The DRS now cancels that massive disadvantage of dirty air out, and that's what I think is allowing them to follow more closely in the first place, rather than the other rule changes.

Right now though it does look like DRS is slightly too strong to me. I'd like it to cancel out that dirty air disadvantage and no more.

dannyjo22 · 8 May 2011 at 16:26

I'm going to agree to disagree regards DRS, every race thread is turning into the same discussion/debate. I will just leave it there. No one will agree and it's like groundhog day after GP race thread.

Why not have a hate DRS thread.

CaptainRAVE · 8 May 2011 at 16:27

AcidHell2 said:
Which again comes back to you want time trailing not racing. DRS can never. Be acceptable in races, it is incompatible, due to the way it works.

We've seen a fair amount of over taking all yeah and not just in DRS zone. Just because some races are less than others, doesn't mean you need DRS to keep overtaking unto several a lap. There is no skill or enjoyment derived by a DRS over take, it is utterly boring to watch and spoils the true racing.

Just reminds me of wacky races everytime it is used.

Kenai · 8 May 2011 at 16:28

dannyjo22 said:
getting the faster car past with the minimum of fuss.

This isn't racing and is fundamentally why people don't like it.

I don't watch motor racing so I can see people drive past each other 'with the minimum of fuss' on a straight bit of track due to being given an advantage over the car in front.

That straight could have provided us with some great slipstreaming battles today if DRS wasn't there, with drivers using real skill to set themselves up well the corner before, to get a good drag off the car in front and then push the car to the limits into the braking zones.

Glaucus · 8 May 2011 at 16:28

Setroc said:
I agree, and this is not even mentioning the fact that DRS helps to allow cars to follow more closely in the first place. It was when you were within one second of the car in front in previous seasons where the dirty air affected you the most, and you'd see it so often that faster cars would get closer and closer to the car in front until they got within that one second window, and they would stop getting closer, even though they had previously been 3-4 tenths quicker or even more than that at some circuits per lap. The DRS now cancels that massive disadvantage of dirty air out, and that's what I think is allowing them to follow more closely in the first place, rather than the other rule changes.

Right now though it does look like DRS is slightly too strong to me. I'd like it to cancel out that dirty air disadvantage and no more.

That is so wrong on so many levels

For a start DRS does not make them follow closer. It can only be used on one straight, when it is disengaged they hit the dirty air and would fall back. They don't they can now follow at around 0.5 seconds. That is close enough to enter the slip stream on straights.

It is not like a slip stream from the past. The car using DRS has the advantage until they brake, compared to slipstream where they lose the advantage as soon as they pull out from behind the car. Also the car being overtaken can not pull in behind the DRS car and gain the slipstream like. They did in the old days and immediately take the place back.

dannyjo22 · 8 May 2011 at 16:29

CaptainRAVE said:
Just reminds me of wacky races everytime it is used.

I prefer Penelope Pitstop to Vettel.

Setroc · 8 May 2011 at 16:43

AcidHell2 said:
That is so wrong on so many levels

For a start DRS does not make them follow closer. It can only be used on one straight, when it is disengaged they hit the dirty air and would fall back. They don't they can now follow at around 0.5 seconds. That is close enough to enter the slip stream on straights.

It is not like a slip stream from the past. The car using DRS has the advantage until they brake, compared to slipstream where they lose the advantage as soon as they pull out from behind the car. Also the car being overtaken can not pull in behind the DRS car and gain the slipstream like. They did in the old days and immediately take the place back.

It does allow them to follow more closely, that is just common sense. And it is also completely observable, especially in the last race where drivers were losing so much time in the long turn 13 while they were in the wake of the car in front. You could literally watch them falling back through the long corner. Then they would catch up again in the DRS straight that followed immediately.

Glaucus · 8 May 2011 at 16:47

It let's them have a speed advantage for one straight, it does not and never will allow them to follow closer over all or even part of the lap. It is effective only for when DRS is engaged. Your example is a perfect one. The speed boost allows. Them to close the difference and nothing to do with dirty air anyway. For when the DRS is engaged. It does not allow them to then follow closely for the rest of the lap.

Duke · 8 May 2011 at 17:04

dannyjo22 said:
I don't get why they keep going on about the DRS line being right or wrong. Why not just alter the angle the wing can move?

So you maintain a long DRS zone but don't get as much advantage from the wing. So you have a long run to get a decent tow but the gain isn't so fast and huge.

Much easier to just move a line than to change the wing rules for all the teams.

Deathwish · 8 May 2011 at 17:12

Vertigo1 said:
Is it just me who's getting increasingly fed up with everyone ranting on about how "amazing" this season is?

Of the four races so far, Vettel has taken all four pole positions and 93 out of a possible 100 points. With neither Ferrari nor McLaren seemingly able to do anything about Red Bull, we're currently heading for the biggest walk-over championship ever.

This has happened time and time before, so it's nothing new.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Formula_One_season

For example, Damon won the first 3 races no problem, and went on to win many more.