TVs and going obsolete

Broken Hope said:
Can't see me replacing my C9 until MicroLED now, unless my C9 dies before then. There's no new HDMI standards or anything coming in the next few years.
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We're lucky that the industry went through a quick sharp period of innovation.

I too, foresee quite a boring flat few years ahead, which makes buying now a great choice - there isn't any new features or tech coming soon that will make you want to upgrade again, not until MicroLED in 5 years or so

List the ones I know of

HDR/Dolby Vision: No known replacement option, feature scales with brightness dynamically

VRR/Gsync/Freesync: TV's support there, there is nothing better and no replacement known

HDMI 2.1/e-ARC/ALLM: Just released, won't be replaced for many years

4k 120hz: 4k is only now becoming mainstream, 8k won't be worth it for many years and HDMI 2.1 will continue to block 8k from going over 60hz so gamers won't switch from 4k

OLED: Best screen technology, no upgrade until MicroLED (analysts predict 5-7 years from being affordable)

QLED: Second best screen technology, MiniLED is intended to replace it this year however TV reviewers are not convinced that they offer any improvement that can be seen with the eyes and MiniLED appears to be an exercise in marketing (bigger number is higher than smaller number so must be better right)
 
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I do have to accept that there is now a slight noticeable lack of "pop" in HDR, I used the Japan 4k HDR videos on youtube, seems like the best HDR experience :s, it's so minute, I'm comparing it to my Galaxy S20 Ultra which is much brighter. But thinking what I could have got for 950, and then thinking of the contrast, those full blacks, far outweigh any additional brightness of a similar priced LED TV.
 
lucid said:
OLED prices reflect the fact that only one company managed to bring the tech to market successfully.
The tech in iPhones isn't unique other than the OS and the whole Apple ecosystem. These are not really the same thing as the OLED proposition.
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I mean as a marketting exercise , both Apple + LG push the exclusivity/premium aspect of their product demanding a premium price which I think is unjustified;
the lg panels are in the $500 domain, yield improving , so bom suggest a big margin ... albeit, qled seems to try and match their price, despite $200 panel,
but, ok, that's capitalism.
[I suppose another example is the high margin on a 'premium' bmw car versus a ford]


Grim5 said:
OLED: Best screen technology, no upgrade until MicroLED (analysts predict 5-7 years from being affordable)
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I'm not sure microled will deliver a 55" 4k, maybe a 55" 1080/fhd though ... due to inability to miniaturize.

The real QLED emissive tech that samsung are developing/bought may gazump them both..
[edit: ie Vincent https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=1cF3QG8-8Bk
Emissive vs Photo-Enhanced Quantum Dot TV: Nanosys Interview ]


No announcement from sony or panasonic about mini-led panels at ces.
 
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jpaul said:
I mean as a marketting exercise , both Apple + LG push the exclusivity/premium aspect of their product demanding a premium price which I think is unjustified;
the lg panels are in the $500 domain, yield improving , so bom suggest a big margin ... albeit, qled seems to try and match their price, despite $200 panel,
but, ok, that's capitalism.
[I suppose another example is the high margin on a 'premium' bmw car versus a ford]
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Once again though, I don't see reality reflecting your proposition.

For a start, OLED prices have fallen much as LED TV prices have. Compare and contrast that with iPhone prices which, if anything, have gone up in real terms with successive generations.

You brought cars in to it too. If BMW followed the same kind of price erosion as LG OLED then a 318i wouldn't be £30k new on the forecourt. You'd be able to get the keys to that brand new car for closer to £15k.

An LG 55BX6 OLED is £1099. The Samsung QE55Q80 LED TV is selling at the same price. Where's the $300 OLED panel premium? This isn't even Samsung's top-of-the-range QLED. The Q90 is £1299.

LG's own Nano tech LED is more too. The 55NANO956 is £1199.

Of all the OLED TVs in the market, LG has the lowest price. Granted, LG has higher-spec OLEDs too, but the picture quality is the same between a BX and a CX.

Arguably, the companies buying OLED panels from LG make better TVs thanks to their superior picture processing tech. Sony, Panasonic and Philips have all won plaudits for their OLED offerings.

If LG was so intent on retaining its premium image then why offer the cheapest OLED in the market and allow competitors to outshine the brand?

My view is that OLED remains relatively expensive to produce - hence why still no rival panel manufacturers - and niche in the wider TV market.

Prices have fallen, and that reflects improving yields in a maturing technology. However, the volumes aren't there to take OLED in to a middle-market TV battle with LED. Also bear in mind that OLED can't use edge lighting or even just fewer lighting zones. Nor can it drop to an 8bit + FRC panel or use panels with a much slower pixel response to make the whole thing cheaper. So then, comparisons with the general LED TV market aren't really fair.
 
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OLED value for money
LG home electronics seem to have increased their profit margin by >100% over the past year , so making more money than ever out of TV's,
can't see the OLED/lcd break-out though.
interesting point

Let me answer your questions regarding home entertainment business. According to market research, we expect the TV market demand in 2021 to slightly increase compared to the previous year.
If we divide the year into the first half and the second half, in the first half, we believe that the demand increase that we saw last year due to the contactless activities will continue into the first half. But in the second half, as the out-of-home activities and engagement increases, thanks to the introduction of vaccines and treatments, TV demand is likely to fall.
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article on why samsung are not releasing their QD-oled competitor.
https://www.oled-a.org/samsung-visu...qd-oleds-in-favor-of-mini-led-tvs_112220.html
Two other light impacting components are difficult to measure: QD-OLEDs are top emission and use a higher aperture ratio, while RGBW has a white subpixel that is used as a substitute for some colors that would normally require the uses of 2 or 3 primary colors, which improves the efficiency of the device at the cost of additional power to driver 4 subpixels instead of 3.
Another reason that the Visual Display Division was reluctant to sell QD-OLEDs was the value add that they could provide using LCDs. Samsung Visual Display pioneered the concept of buying “open panels”, so they could provide the electronics including the drivers and the backlight. This process effectively shifts net revenue from the panel maker to the TV maker and is not really possible with OLEDs that have no backlight. The QD-OLED Fab uses an amorphous backplane (IGZO) with ~ 8-10 masks, close to double what the more mature LG RGBW fab uses, increasing the cost differential between the two processes
Samsung Visual Display is expected to introduce at least one or two mini-LED product over the next few months. With eight factories and an R&D center in Vietnam, Samsung should have no problem finding room to expand its mini-LED assembly capacity if it proves successful with consumers.
Samsung has in recent weeks trademarked 'QLED Neo', 'QLED Platinum', 'QLED+', 'QLED Z' and 'Quantum Matrix', potentially hinting at its plans for 2021 TVs. And even 'Samsung QNED'. Last year, they trademarked 'Dual LED', 'Zero Bezel' and 'Infinity Screen'. The company launched its almost bezel-less "Infinity" Q950TS 8K TVs just two months later at CES 2020 – and started using Dual LED in its mid-range models. Samsung has now trademarked 'QLED Neo', 'QLED Platinum', 'QLED+', and 'QLED Z' ahead of the launch of its 2021 TVs. German site 4KFilme first reported on the QLED+ and Z trademarks but the company has filed trademarks for other variations too, discovered by FlatpanelsHD, in various regions. All filed as trademarks related to televisions. The company has also trademarked 'Quantum Matrix', which most likely refers to the LED backlight in an LCD TV – perhaps the miniLED-type mentioned before. It has even trademarked 'Samsung micro LED' and 'Samsung QNED', where QNED refers to Quantum Nano(rod) Emitting Diode. Lastly, it has trademarked 'Wireless Rear Speaker Compatible' under the categories 'Televisions; Audio speakers', perhaps suggesting that buyers will be able to wirelessly connect optional rear speakers to their TV.
Separately, DSCC in a report on Micro LEDs concluded that even by 2026 the technology will be constrained by high costs to a small segment of the TV market. At CES 2020, Samsung announced microLED TVs for a third time,promising to bring "home-ready" 75 to 150-inch models to the market this year. MicroLED TVs, pursued by Samsung Visual Display are looking to the consumer market but Samsung's plan for 2020 was unsuccessful even as Jong-Hee Han made a commitment to the Samsung Chairman’s office. Samsung Electronics, which houses both divisions, is now a microcosm of the TV industry, where the battle for TV display supremacy looms between micro LEDs, OLEDs and QD’s.
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jpaul said:
OLED value for money
LG home electronics seem to have increased their profit margin by >100% over the past year , so making more money than ever out of TV's,
can't see the OLED/lcd break-out though.
interesting point
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I'm always slightly concerned when any online article includes quite obvious typos as "existing" instead of exiting. It suggests to me something rushed and with no editorial oversight. How does one rate the quality of any sort of analysis if grammar in the publication is a bit suspect?

However, the figures are there if ET.Telecom or whatever it is called reported them accurately.

I suppose another interpretation of the profits jump is
- "we put all of our expansion and development plans on hold because of the Pandemic. That produced a bigger bottom line profit that we just weren't able to hide.

We will end up paying out more tax. Bugger."

LOL :D:D:D
 
jpaul said:
The take-away from the LG financial results cooment is that prices should dip when demand drops as peoples spending behaviour changes if/when post-covid happens.

It seems LG approbation of the QNED term was rejected leaving it for Samsung to use if they deliver on their lcd based oled successor.
LG QNED Rejection is a win for Samsung! What’s Next?
https://compoundsemiconductor.net/article/111723/The_battle_for_next_generation_TV_displays
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None of which suggests not to buy a TV now
 
TVs don't go obsolete really, just the things around them, connectors, the switch from analog to digital, the next step will be OTA terrestrial/satelitte to solely internet based and to supplement that the chips inside the TV grow to accomodate new standards and viewer choices

I still run a couple of old 1080p screens, mostly driven by external boxes now as the smarts got less so over time, not as a main though, just moved them out to other areas, one of them an ES7000 had a great feature that you could upgrade the smartv bit, I have bought both the SEK1000 and SEK4500 for it over time bringing the old TV upto 2018/9 UI and apps, plus better wifi and processors etc, very nice feature, its even added HDMI 2.0 so will take in a 4K and plays back 4K netflix to the 1080p screen :D its very interesting approach and a shame that they have dropped this approach as screens don't need yearly updates. Though these days I use the TV smarts less as it is driven by Sky Q but it is good it is there.

Of course whilst that has upgraded its smarts and gave it more processing power it can do nothing to give me an actually 4k output, improve the LCD quality, so black levels and response time are still at 2010 levels, still it would be nice if more TVs did this though as most of the advancements come on the software side where advances in image processing and AI smarts are boosting image quality such that many people don't see the difference between 1080p and 4k on there new sets due to the AI enhancements on teh scaling fronts and the power of the processors doing the job.
 
sandys said:
TVs don't go obsolete really, just the things around them, connectors, the switch from analog to digital, the next step will be OTA terrestrial/satelitte to solely internet based and to supplement that the chips inside the TV grow to accomodate new standards and viewer choices

I still run a couple of old 1080p screens, mostly driven by external boxes now as the smarts got less so over time, not as a main though, just moved them out to other areas, one of them an ES7000 had a great feature that you could upgrade the smartv bit, I have bought both the SEK1000 and SEK4500 for it over time bringing the old TV upto 2018/9 UI and apps, plus better wifi and processors etc, very nice feature, its even added HDMI 2.0 so will take in a 4K and plays back 4K netflix to the 1080p screen :D its very interesting approach and a shame that they have dropped this approach as screens don't need yearly updates. Though these days I use the TV smarts less as it is driven by Sky Q but it is good it is there.

Of course whilst that has upgraded its smarts and gave it more processing power it can do nothing to give me an actually 4k output, improve the LCD quality, so black levels and response time are still at 2010 levels, still it would be nice if more TVs did this though as most of the advancements come on the software side where advances in image processing and AI smarts are boosting image quality such that many people don't see the difference between 1080p and 4k on there new sets due to the AI enhancements on teh scaling fronts and the power of the processors doing the job.
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Didn't samsung used to call it the oneconnect box? I always thought it seemed like a good idea.
 
theone8181 said:
Didn't samsung used to call it the oneconnect box? I always thought it seemed like a good idea.
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Personally I think better than this would be (whyyyy Don’t they do this) for third parties such as Apple TV to accept controls from a selection of vendor remotes. Most have menu/play pause buttons etc and work across their ranges, so there are not many. The main drawback to third party boxes for most is surely the nonsense of the two mismatching remotes making it all feel disjointed?
 
Jez said:
Personally I think better than this would be (whyyyy Don’t they do this) for third parties such as Apple TV to accept controls from a selection of vendor remotes. Most have menu/play pause buttons etc and work across their ranges, so there are not many. The main drawback to third party boxes for most is surely the nonsense of the two mismatching remotes making it all feel disjointed?
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I run most third party boxes through standard controller with TV, this has been a thing over HDMI CEC for years, I've never used my Sky control in the year I have had it apart from initial setup. Same for doing media through playstation.

But that it not better than being able to upgrade the TV hardware, just something nice to have alongside. If the hardware is good in the TV you wouldn't need anyboxes, what does AppleTV do that is more beneficial than the App. (oh of course games I suppose, I guess they don't all work over air play)
 
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I use it for HDhomerun and Channels for DVR and stuff, love apple things.

I am so behind the times though I’ve never used CEC or ever looked at that...that’s added to my todo if it means that I can get rid of the Apple remote :)
 
jpaul said:
The take-away from the LG financial results cooment is that prices should dip when demand drops as peoples spending behaviour changes if/when post-covid happens.

It seems LG approbation of the QNED term was rejected leaving it for Samsung to use if they deliver on their lcd based oled successor.
LG QNED Rejection is a win for Samsung! What’s Next?
https://compoundsemiconductor.net/article/111723/The_battle_for_next_generation_TV_displays
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The relationship between supply and demand and how that affects pricing not withstanding, somehow I doubt that LG got to the size it has without learning how to weather ups and downs of consumer demand. The fact that it is mentioned means they're already planning for it.

I also suspect that other factors such as import problems at UK docks, currency fluctuations, interest rates, politics, the economic recovery in other sales territories, raw materials supplies, manufacturing capacity, and even the UK weather may well have significant impacts on demand too, so trying to predict that LG will commit financial seppuku with it's TV range is, IMO at least, a case of overreaching based on scant information. This is a company with a massive and diverse portfolio of activities.

Here's another point. Given what was said in the article about LG's mobile phone business, are UK phone retailers suddenly awash with LG phone offers?
 
lucid said:
Here's another point. Given what was said in the article about LG's mobile phone business, are UK phone retailers suddenly awash with LG phone offers?
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interesting point - I hadn't appreciated how LG were loosing in the phone buisness to chinese android, with better software and probably cheaper production costs.

yes they/LG have a (clear) technology/exclusivity lead in oled, but also a lot of money tied up in production facilities Korea+china, which they need to be runnning 24/7,
so if demand drops, post covid'ish you can be in situation where you just have to maintain capacity/turnover and accept a smaller profit. (or stockpile)
but I agree there are many other factors.

If Samsung are chasing down LG with QNED then there is some urgency for LG to make money.
 
jpaul said:
interesting point - I hadn't appreciated how LG were loosing in the phone buisness to chinese android, with better software and probably cheaper production costs.


yes they/LG have a (clear) technology/exclusivity lead in oled, but also a lot of money tied up in production facilities Korea+china, which they need to be runnning 24/7,

so if demand drops, post covid'ish you can be in situation where you just have to maintain capacity/turnover and accept a smaller profit. (or stockpile)

but I agree there are many other factors.


If Samsung are chasing down LG with QNED then there is some urgency for LG to make money.
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I can't comment on exactly how LG runs its OLED production facilities other than to say 24/7 operation makes sense purely from a production management perspective. It's easier (and cheaper) to keep lines running than go through start-up and shut-down procedures every day.


That doesn't mean that the lines are running flat out though.


Again, I can't speak for LG, but from what I know of the production processes within manufacturing industries is there's an increasing risk of rejections the faster a production line goes.This means there's a balance point between the speed of production and the acceptable rate (and cost) of the rejections. Also, running at ‘full speed’ if you will in normal production times leaves nothing in reserve if production needs to be increased at peak periods.


Given the nature of price erosion in TV tech, and the cost of holding stock in warehousing, I’d be surprised if LG held significant stocks. It's probably better for them to follow something closer to a Just-in-Time production model with minimal finished stock in land-based warehousing and most of the inventory on the move by road, rail and sea. At least it’s moving towards an invoice date that way, and the transport acts as a virtual warehouse of sorts.


Samsung’s Neo QLED is already being countered by LG’s “QNED” or whatever they’ll call it. It seems like LG are going to position this between their current NanoCell LED TV range and OLED as a premium LED offiering.


All things considered then, LG will have standard LED as a price-fighter range, NanoCell for a mid-range/semi-premium offer, then QNED for those who want a lot of the benefits of OLED but with higher nit values, and then OLED itself. I think if I wanted to maintain volume and market share I’d probably look at shaving a few quid off the LED prices. To my mind that’s a more price sensitive market segment. £50 off a £500 LED is a 10% discount, and that’s probably going to get people to bite. Would the same £50 taken off a £1500 OLED make that much difference to sales? I don’t know if it would excite someone to get an extra 3% off. I guess we’ll see how they play it in the second half of 2021.
 
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