Type R and VTEC owners

[Simon]

Why on earth have you installed a map that doesn't allow you to drive the car as it should be.

I have a massive concern with this 'like my Facebook page and get a free emailed engine map' works we now seem to live in. You can't just email maps across the world. They need to be done properly with real contact with the car and on a rolling road! This bolt on an engine map method doesn't work. As proven at powerstation where it made no benefit.

If you want gains get a decat and AEM and lower vtec with a proper mase mapping session or romain. Anything else is just peeing in the wind. The mugen intake is just a brand name think too. Is a k&n filter in a box that's actually quiet restrictive. Honda had a snorkel on the prototype but didn't fit to final build cars.

I guess this is to be expected on a computer over locking site but building a good engine isn't just a case of buying a load of bits expecting it to work.

Many people will remember the ocuk RR day I turned up on a 250 mile old engine that I had just fitted DTA EX48 to. Met a mate and went for a drive to finalise the map (with wide and lambda and set cans) before running on the dyno.

 

[Will]

I'm sure he's using a flashpro to datalog with each map. Usually vitaly will email a map then ask you to drive through a certain rev range in a certain gear at full/part throttle whilst data logging, rinse repeat several dozen times whilst he changes the map slightly each time. The flashpro is capable of more than just uploading any random map like some of these devices (bluefin etc).

 

[ChrisD.]

Why on earth have you installed a map that doesn't allow you to drive the car as it should be.

I haven't. I've installed a suitable base map for my car with my mods. I now datalog according to instructions and email the logs to the tuner. The tuner wants the part throttle map done correctly and safely before progressing to WOT and VTEC. Pretty sensible if you ask me.

I have a massive concern with this 'like my Facebook page and get a free emailed engine map' works we now seem to live in. You can't just email maps across the world. They need to be done properly with real contact with the car and on a rolling road! This bolt on an engine map method doesn't work. As proven at powerstation where it made no benefit.

I guess you're referring to my car, in which case I was running a base map for a newly fitted manifold, as I've already said. So I'm not sure what that proves? I didn't expect to make any gains at all until tuned correctly. The base map was tuned safely, which was pretty much confirmed by Fuzz after speaking with him about the result.

If you want gains get a decat and AEM and lower vtec with a proper mase mapping session or romain. Anything else is just peeing in the wind. The mugen intake is just a brand name think too. Is a k&n filter in a box that's actually quiet restrictive. Honda had a snorkel on the prototype but didn't fit to final build cars.

So turn up to a dyno, where the tuner uploads a base map, and then do x amount of WOT tunes then leave, is that true mapping? What about part throttle, where the engine spends 95% of its time?

I'm not naming names, but some UK tuners have been known to disable knock logic for tuning sessions in order to get good numbers. This combined with little to no part throttle tuning, I fail to see how this is better than road tuning unless done correctly. At least with the method I've chosen I get to look at the logs myself, I am no expert but I can see knock count and AFR etc, and I know what I should be looking out for.

I have my own previous poor experiences to draw from, with two different cars and two different tuners. The WOT maps were great, but part throttle jerky and no where near as smooth as OEM maps which the tunes replaced.

I'd love to have a full blown Mase map on my car as I saw first hand what he did with my Evo. The two subsequent owners of the car have both emailed me commenting on how smooth and OEM like the Mase map is, except a shovel load more power.

As for the Mugen intake, I have read up a lot about it and I'm happy with what it offers me. I'm confident it'll make more power than stock when tuned.

 

[Zeed]

richyfingers only reason I have not upgraded to DC5 from DC2 is that I cant afford it :/ and DC2 just feels more brute crazy car at least mine does. Track car as daily diver ftw

S2KIP I'm still thinking about getting wideband to hook up with s300 just to have AfR data logging . But as always Moneyzzz :/ ATM I think only about tuning it by guy that build the engine or TDI North.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

I


I'm not naming names, but some UK tuners have been known to disable knock logic for tuning sessions in order to get good numbers. This combined with little to no part throttle tuning, I fail to see how this is better than road tuning unless done correctly.

Most OEM calibrated ECUs disabled knock sensor feedback after 4000rpm anyway due to valvetrain noise.

The only way to guess ignition timing on the road is atleast have EGT. You cant do dyno load cell ignition changes to monitor engine BMEP and hence torque outut.

 

[rjk]

Just seems more trouble than its worth trying to tune an S2000.

Only way I would consider it is if I was moving over to forced induction.

obviously its easier for Chris due to the hondata as I would have to use an AEM but still, there just seems a lot of faffing around involved for a few bhp gain.

Thinking about taking the decat off mine at the weekend actually.

 

[ChrisD.]

I'm not looking for increased peak BHP, I'm looking for more noise and to increase mid range by lowering VTEC safely. I now have the noise, the mid range will come soon.

If I want to increase peak BHP, then I'd just buy a HKS Supercharger which I'm actually considering, although there's a lot to consider.

Luckily my car has OEM wideband which allows this type of tuning.

 

[rjk]

oh I know you wont get much peak and the whole thing is angled towards increasing mid range power but it seems a lot of hassle for something that is essentially just going to alter the power delivery of the vehicle slightly.

 

[ChrisD.]

Each to their own I guess, I'm enjoying tinkering.

 

[randal]

Somewhat unreleated note, but I am once again loving top down drives to work. Haven't had that since the MX5, and the soundtrack to that car wasn't half as good.

Previous owner did the standard exhaust mod, which for a couple of bits of 32mm pipe actually sounds sublime.

 

[Simon]

Each to their own I guess, I'm enjoying tinkering.

Have you got your hands dirty yet?


Look what happened with gibbos m3 for emailed maps:
Has this map lowered vtec? And fueling is only half the mapping, how does he know ignition is correct for peak torque? Changing ignition will also change fuelling so it sounds like these email maps only unlock half the potential.

There is no 'set AFR' for power.

Sounds like this 'emailing logs' is just half arsed mapping hitting predetermined AFR numbers without actually optimising each load point via ign and fuelling for max torque - it will not be surprise if you make no/minimal gains.

Hope it works anyway 30hp at 6000rpm is a benefit any s2000 would crave

 

[ChrisD.]

Tinkering as in putting on the exhaust, intake etc.

VTEC has not yet been lowered, as it's the part throttle that's being tuned right now. Once a few logs and calibrations go back and forth VTEC would then be looked at.

There's a lot more in the logs than just knock count and AFR. There are plenty of happy customers on Civinfo and other UK forums.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

There's a lot more in the logs than just knock count and AFR. Th.

Really?

IAT, ECT,TPS, rpm and VSS dont really help you tune.

Get a decent ignition map with some road and dyno work though and use it as a generic base map to allow remote AFR tuning and I guess you will get results.

Just dont kid yourself its as good as a proper session, nor that Harry Potter is in the ECU inventing sensors readings for the car.

 

[ChrisD.]

So what does a dyno offer in terms of logging that an ECU log does not?

 

[brightside229]

So the noise in my front drivers side wheel has come back last night, still appears above 45mph and on any sort of right turn, humm type noise with slight vibration in wheel, everything points to a possible wheel bearing but did not have the noise before the OHLINS

 

[Gibbo]

Have you got your hands dirty yet?


Look what happened with gibbos m3 for emailed maps:
Has this map lowered vtec? And fueling is only half the mapping, how does he know ignition is correct for peak torque? Changing ignition will also change fuelling so it sounds like these email maps only unlock half the potential.

There is no 'set AFR' for power.

Sounds like this 'emailing logs' is just half arsed mapping hitting predetermined AFR numbers without actually optimising each load point via ign and fuelling for max torque - it will not be surprise if you make no/minimal gains.

Hope it works anyway 30hp at 6000rpm is a benefit any s2000 would crave

In all fairness, some points:

1. The map was good, Andy (Fuzz) only noted the car was rich, of course due to being an email map, but on this email map the car ran fine with no issues as it had a peak of 8000RPM as requested by me.
2. The tuner then wanted to livetune the car to sort the fuelling and improve performance. So he was monitoring all data from the car via OBDII whilst Andy was running it on the dyno, exactly the same as if the guy was there himself, we had AFR being monitored as well along with every other sensor from the car/ECU.

The problem was I believe two things, the tuner increasing the RPM limit to 8500rpm and when questioned stating it was 100% safe, now the tuning company in question is clearly good and maybe they have had no issues with this but it is not suitable as this increased RPM clearly did some shell damage. The other thing to point out is E46 M3 has a lot of reported cases of stretching rod bolts and wearing shells in track driven cars now I've done a lot of research on the subject. The S54 (E46 M3) and S65 (E92 M3) do suffer shell wear and a lot of owners now change them as preventative maintenance.

As such I feel my car was doomed for failure at somepoint in the near future anyway from all the track work it has done and the fact I drive it hard and it does see 8000rpm daily. I believe those two/three runs to 8500rpm exposed this weakness that would have eventually showed up, maybe at the next track day with far worse outcome.

When the car was running on the new map which was done live on the dyno with the correct fueling it was insanely good and fast to drive. So I know all I have to do now is simply reduce the RPM limit down to 8000rpm which I can do myself anyway as the tuner has left my map unlocked.

The cost to myself has being oil, filters, tools and paint as I've decided to refresh the suspension. The new engine parts have cost me zero, just my own time in fitting them, so no labour charges.


Back on the subject are email maps a good or bad thing? I'd not say they are bad like some make out, but neither are they as good as spending a few hours on a dyno. It is like the old argument of live mappers saying they can tune a car as good on the road as they can on a dyno, the reality is they can't afford a dyno so of course they will say that. One thing where email maps were perfect was on my Mustang, when Andy ran it with AFR, knock and every other sensor he himself said he could not believe how well it was mapped and how spot on it was, some are OK, some are bad and some can be spot on. Funnily enough they did not change the RPM limit on the Mustang and it did 40,000 miles supercharged with twice the original engine output, with no issues.

But for most email maps serve a purpose and as long as you do some datalogs and if possible also get the car on a dyno with the tuner present or logged into a laptop then it can all be fine tuned, just don't let them tell you a higher RPM limit is safe.

Like Andy himself said, the map is good, on the day my car had a power curve similar to other M3's but more power everywhere with 5000-8000rpm resulting in 40-50 more horsepower over standard cars, the problem was simply the higher RPM, we live and learn, if I ever get a car tuned again via email, on a dyno or on the moon and they say lets push the RPM's higher I will say no thank you. Unless of course I've built the engine for higher RPM, another UK M3 tuning company is currently running an E46 M3 at 9700RPM limit, ARP bolts, coated shells, cams, vanos delete, motorsport ecu, INSANE!.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

So what does a dyno offer in terms of logging that an ECU log does not?

LOTS.

The ability to hold a load site. ie rpm and throttle and monitor engine torque as you change ignition to understand the peak BMEP. Its all about timing of the combustion event so that the cylinder pressure works at the best time to give the conrod max leverage on the crankshaft.

Its basically a kid on a swing, this tells you when the best time to push him is and perfect for part throttle refinement.

The more cars people tune you get better base knowledge on the steps from the OEM cal. They do good maps for LOADS of cars so the same rules apply. The issue really is tuners saying they have maps for XYZ when really its a few cars they have done so you end up being the start of their car and very much the guinea pig. Great if they are conservative to start with, but it will take time and customers may not get quick benefits.... easy at that point to go to far trying stuff out and ultimately the car owner pays the price for the tuners educational experiments.

 

[ChrisD.]

LOTS.

The ability to hold a load site. ie rpm and throttle and monitor engine torque as you change ignition to understand the peak BMEP. Its all about timing of the combustion event so that the cylinder pressure works at the best time to give the conrod max leverage on the crankshaft.

Most dyno tunes on Honda's that I have seen don't do this. Turn up, base map, 10-15 (if lucky) WOT runs, adjust base map, you see dyno graph with 'max 240 bhp' and flat ish AFR curve, then drive home.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Most dyno tunes on Honda's that I have seen don't do this. Turn up, base map, 10-15 (if lucky) WOT runs, adjust base map, you see dyno graph with 'max 240 bhp' and flat ish AFR curve, then drive home.

... ok.

And? Are you agreeing with the notion?

What ECU. If its Hondata they are effectively tuning the OEM maps anyway, cylinder enrichment, injector voltage correction etc etc is all as Honda themselves set it up as.

 

[Gibbo]

Most dyno tunes on Honda's that I have seen don't do this. Turn up, base map, 10-15 (if lucky) WOT runs, adjust base map, you see dyno graph with 'max 240 bhp' and flat ish AFR curve, then drive home.

This is true, when I spoke to Sal at Evolve down in London, Andy at Powerstation and Frank at TTFS in the USA and I asked when companies say get your car live dyno tuned, what does it mean.

They all laughed and said you cannot change values in the ECU map "live" to speak whilst running on the dyno because you can't flash the ECU whilst the car is running with new parameters. Of course some cars can have motorsport ECU's that allow such adjustment or of course old cars where adjustments were made with tools and not computers.

What they do is exactly as you just said, do a dyno run with everything monitored, make some changes in the file, re-flash it and re-dyno. They then keep doing this, rinse and repeat until the tune file is perfected.

Live dyno tuning is myth on modern cars with ECU's.