Type R and VTEC owners

The M3 is irrelevant we shouldn't let it cloud the issue. It was massively more expensive, massively more powerful and wasn't available as anything other than a Coupe or a Cab anyway.

It's existence doesn't really change what the 330i Sport was - which was the top end performance sports saloon model in the 3 Series range. In exactly the same way as the Accord Euro R was the top end performance sports saloon model in the Accord range, no?

Over a standard 4 pot diesel old man edition both Accord and 330i have enhanced suspension setups, better and more powerful engines (217bhp in the Accord, 231bhp in the 330i) and much better performance. I do not understand how the 330i Sport can be called 'Sedate' when the Accord offers pretty much identical (if not slightly slower but it doesn't really matter so we wont dwell on that) performance. If the 330i is sedate, and by some metrics it is, then the Accord is sedate as well.

There a bunch of these type of cars from 2003ish - the Mondeo ST220, the 330i Sport, the Accord Euro R, I'm sure there are more. They are all the same concept - take the regular 4 door Saloon, make it look better, add handling and other enhancements, end up with a flagship saloon that does 0-60 in 6.something and hits 150mph.

The 3 Series isn't an 'old man sedate wafter' because if it was I'd drive one myself as that's far more my type of car, I like effortless performance and refinement, something the 3 Series was so bad at I sold it within months. The engine in the 330i is decent, it revs well (Though not to the extent a Honda does, but it's simply two different engines achieving the same aim through different power delivery methods) and it's enjoyable to wring out. It's not really that much more refined than a Honda Accord, but then it isn't intended to be because if you want a refined car BMW would rather have sold you a 5 or 7 Series for more money anyway.

In summary then my view is they are two different manufacturers take on the same sort of car. Just as the Mondeo is a third manufacturers take on this sort of car and the Vectra VXR was Vauxhalls take on this sort of car.

I'm stupid enough to not realise that the fact one revs to a billion rpm and one doesn't means they will be, shock, different to drive, but that doesn't stop them being the same type of car.
 
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We also need to remember how much a good Accord of this type costs - near e90 330 money

You'd need to really, really want the Accord to buy one - if you don't then there's no discussion to even be had, it will never make financial sense
 
[TW]Fox;28947155 said:
The M3 is irrelevant we shouldn't let it cloud the issue. It was massively more expensive, massively more powerful and wasn't available as anything other than a Coupe or a Cab anyway.

It's existence doesn't really change what the 330i Sport was - which was the top end performance sports saloon model in the 3 Series range. In exactly the same way as the Accord Euro R was the top end performance sports saloon model in the Accord range, no?

Over a standard 4 pot diesel old man edition both Accord and 330i have enhanced suspension setups, better and more powerful engines (217bhp in the Accord, 231bhp in the 330i) and much better performance. I do not understand how the 330i Sport can be called 'Sedate' when the Accord offers pretty much identical (if not slightly slower but it doesn't really matter so we wont dwell on that) performance. If the 330i is sedate, and by some metrics it is, then the Accord is sedate as well.

There a bunch of these type of cars from 2003ish - the Mondeo ST220, the 330i Sport, the Accord Euro R, I'm sure there are more. They are all the same concept - take the regular 4 door Saloon, make it look better, add handling and other enhancements, end up with a flagship saloon that does 0-60 in 6.something and hits 150mph.

The 3 Series isn't an 'old man sedate wafter' because if it was I'd drive one myself as that's far more my type of car, I like effortless performance and refinement, something the 3 Series was so bad at I sold it within months. The engine in the 330i is decent, it revs well (Though not to the extent a Honda does, but it's simply two different engines achieving the same aim through different power delivery methods) and it's enjoyable to wring out. It's not really that much more refined than a Honda Accord, but then it isn't intended to be because if you want a refined car BMW would rather have sold you a 5 or 7 Series for more money anyway.

In summary then my view is they are two different manufacturers take on the same sort of car. Just as the Mondeo is a third manufacturers take on this sort of car and the Vectra VXR was Vauxhalls take on this sort of car.
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No the M3 point is that the M is the top of the performance model, so the 330 would be the "sporty" one in the range, the same way the Type R is the top performance model and the Type S is the sporty one, both are given to engineers to tune them out to higher specs. I think you just can't accept that you were wrong calling it "sporty" and saying its not a "Type R", so I'm going to stop repeating the point over and again.

As for the rest, again your comparing chalk and cheese and over inflating the comparison, if you really think the 330i, CL7, ST220 and the VXR are all the same cars just because they have similar stats and figures you've found on the internet then you really don't know what your on about. What you should be saying is that they are different take ons in the same class or type of car.
 
There is no E46 M3 Saloon.

Are you saying that had Honda released an Accord WTCC Nutter 350bhp model and kept the CL7 the same as it was the CL7 would suddenly just be an Accord simply due to the presence of the much more expensive much faster model in the range?

That seems to be your point with the M3.

I don't think they are all 'the same cars', I think they are all the same type of cars, are therefore all logically comparable - all of them are performance saloons and go about the business of being a performance saloon with similar performance in slightly different ways. Each one will feel a bit different because of fundamental differences in the way the deliver power etc but that doens't stop them being the same type of car.

Are you saying an Audi A3 and a 1 Series are not the same sort of car? They both drive very different as a result of a completely different approach to the drivetrain...

This whole thing has only come about because some seem to consider the CL7 as a holy unicorn of wonder which cannot possibly be compared to a lowly 3 series or spit Vectra.
 
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Sheesh, I ain't saying there is, it's a hypothetical point. Your point also makes no sense, not even hypothetically, the M cars are the high performance models, the same way for Honda it is the Type R, you can't get any higher than that, so your point makes no sense even hypothetically.

I'm not sure who these "some people" are that see the CL7 as a unicorn or superior to the 330i, these "people" made the point that they drive differently, you are the one one who claimed the 330i is a "superior" car and kicked off the debate, but are now arguing they are the same.

Well I'm glad we can now finally agree on something, that they drive differently.
 
Only one way to solve this, Gran Turismo face off :D, CL7 only holds value because it's rare.

Seems almost pointless that Honda made it considering they had the DC5 and CTR
 
Most of the JDM motors would be cheaper if they were officially sold here.

The CL7 was ultimately for people who needed 4 door family practically, something the DC5 and CTR couldn't offer.
 
So after all these long posts all I can seem to understand is that Fox thinks the CL7 and the 330i Sport are the same type of car (marketed as such) and lemonade thinks Fox doesn't think that? :confused:

The 330i Sport is a much more sensible car than the CL7 in today's economic climate and second hand prices - the only logical reason you would buy a CL7 over the 330i Sport is because you, as an individual, really want one - whether that is due to JDM sCeNPoInTsYo! or because you need to thrash it around to get the best performance out of it.

TLDR, DC5 trumps the CL7 and CL7 < 330i Sport when price is considered. Next? :p
 
itt people trying to bestow some sort of mechanical wizardry on a Honda Accord in comparison to its competitors for no reason other than a desire to want a Type R variant.

Its not genuinely sporty enough to be special, just like the 330i isn't.

Regards,

A genuinely sporty M car owner.
 
hurfdurf said:
itt people trying to bestow some sort of mechanical wizardry on a Honda Accord in comparison to its competitors for no reason other than a desire to want a Type R variant.

Its not genuinely sporty enough to be special, just like the 330i isn't.

Regards,

A genuinely sporty M car owner.
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Ok mate, I think we can safely conclude that Type R's in general aren't very sporty or special, just your typical rusty Jap tin cans with a lawnmower under the bonnet that sounds like a hairdryer on full blast.

In conclusion the 330i is indeed superior.
 
lemonade said:
Ok mate, I think we can safely conclude that Type R's in general aren't very sporty or special, just your typical rusty Jap tin cans with a lawnmower under the bonnet that sounds like a hairdryer on full blast.

In conclusion the 330i is indeed superior.
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Most type R's are special, hence why people are trying so hard to equate the Accord to one without it actually being one.
 
S2000 ap1 valve clearance check and timing chain/timing chain tensioner check - where to go and what to pay roughly presuming the timing chain doesn't need replacing (fairly certain it won't)? Cars over 100k now and from quickly looking, not sure either has ever been done. Engine pulls well and no unexpected noises cold/warm.

Don't mind travelling a bit as it will be a one off for me - the car will be sold before further checks need doing.
 
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