Caporegime
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Thanks for clearing that up.
UEFA Champions League 6/7 December *** Spoilers ***
- Thread starter Cosimo
- Start date
Thanks for clearing that up.
Soldato
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Rooney's most obvious strength is his physical presence and pace, and what he lacks in height he definitely makes up in power.
He also has excellent shooting technique in and around the box, although his long range shooting isn't what it used to be.
His short passing isn't great but his long range passing is among the best in the world due to his technique and vision. The only reason you don't see it more often is because 99% of the time he gets on the ball in the final third. You say plenty of other players are better but I've never seen van Persie, for example, do anything like this:
His work rate is phenomenal compared to most forwards and when given a job to do, does it. I often think Rooney struggles most when he is given a free role because he tends to wander and chase the ball. He excelled when playing on the final shoulder or when he was played on the wing to accommodate Ronaldo.
There's more than that but it's a start.
Caporegime
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He has and he hasn't, they just aren't playing him that much after being deemed not good enough in the first season. He's only started 8 games in the league, and has 5 goals....... for country he's in ridiculous form.
He's also scored 3 in 4 appearances in the champs league, he's FAR from in bad form, he's not in his best for, and in the league and UCL, in 12 starts he has 8 games......fail to see how that can be seen as bad form.
The barca/new striker thing is odd, I think they just seem upset they spent 80 gazillion euro's replacing a 30-40goal a season striker with someone who ONLY got 20, in his first year in a club all completely used to each other. So they got shot, and now they expected Villa to come in and instantly hit 50 goals, and he didn't so they've semi dropped him. Ibra and Villa are largely very effective for Barca, just not effective enough for a manager who wanted the impossible.
Then what makes you think you have a clue what you're going on about in terms of questioning Rooney and how he compares with other players in his position?
To be perfectly frank all you really offer is different superlatives about the players you watch week in week out (for the last few seasons it was Fabregas, this season it's RVP) and then throw hissy fits when someone mentions someone who plays for Man Utd (I thought it was just Rooney at first but you did it last week when we were discussing Hernandez as well)
RVP is the in form striker in the league, he'd make anyone's team of the season given though he's only just got his act together over the last year forgive me if I dont join you on that bandwagon after seeing what Rooney did for my team during the entire 09/10 season, what he did at the end of last season and what he did at the start of this season
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I'd question whether RvP has always had the talent he's showing now and whether he's been more consistent than Rooney has over the 7 years they've both been with Arsenal/Utd.
RvP's first couple of seasons appear to have been fairly injury free (played more games than in any other seasons) and he hardly set the world alight. Yes, he had his injury problems in between then and now but I'd say Rooney's had as many injuries (maybe not kept him out for as long but preventing him having prolonged runs in the side). Of the 2, I'd say Rooney's been the more consistent player over the last 5-7 years. RvP's having a great 12-18 months but then again, Heskey had a great 18 months once
@DM If you weren't trying to disprove what I wrote, why did you very clearly say the stats I provided were wrong? It wasn't a matter of opinion. They were stats from wiki, they're either wrong or right and if you're going to say they're wrong (they could well be, wiki's far from reliable) then you need to back it up.
Yeah bit of context needed DM, David Villa in poor form still scores 1 goal from 5 or 6 chances and is still bloody good, just nothing like the Villa of old imo! I don't think he's a poor player, he's just not maintained his high standards well recently.
I'd question whether RvP has always had the talent he's showing now and whether he's been more consistent than Rooney has over the 7 years they've both been with Arsenal/Utd.
RvP's first couple of seasons appear to have been fairly injury free (played more games than in any other seasons) and he hardly set the world alight. Yes, he had his injury problems in between then and now but I'd say Rooney's had as many injuries (maybe not kept him out for as long but preventing him having prolonged runs in the side). Of the 2, I'd say Rooney's been the more consistent player over the last 5-7 years. RvP's having a great 12-18 months but then again, Heskey had a great 18 months once
@DM If you weren't trying to disprove what I wrote, why did you very clearly say the stats I provided were wrong? It wasn't a matter of opinion. They were stats from wiki, they're either wrong or right and if you're going to say they're wrong (they could well be, wiki's far from reliable) then you need to back it up.
Sure, that's why I said the form/career thing is just annoying and confusing, Rooney has probably been better over his career than RvP, almost certainly.
Also, RvP has had a good 2 or 3 years imo, as somebody who might not have seen every Arsenal game in that spell it's easy to not realise this, but I think this form started in the 08/09 season (before he got injured that season) when he really made the 4-5-1 position work for him and put himself up a level, he got a bad injury but returned the next season in great form again, it was just forgotten due to having so long out.
Caporegime
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His short passing isn't great but his long range passing is among the best in the world due to his technique and vision. The only reason you don't see it more often is because 99% of the time he gets on the ball in the final third. You say plenty of other players are better but I've never seen van Persie, for example, do anything like this:
His work rate is phenomenal compared to most forwards and when given a job to do, does it. I often think Rooney struggles most when he is given a free role because he tends to wander and chase the ball. He excelled when playing on the final shoulder or when he was played on the wing to accommodate Ronaldo.
There's more than that but it's a start.
uh oh, would be better as a video and you could pause it. The MOST misused piece of info, and the most ridiculous ignored part of "uber long passing is", when someone is running down the wing, from that far away, that ball could have hit anywhere in a MASSIVE area, and the winger would have adjusted his run from the start and made it.
Uber long passing into MASSIVE amounts of space that rely on the winger to get there ISN'T good passing, its ruddy easy because there is massive margin for error, the ball could be 20 yards out of place, but the winger only has to turn a marginal amount at the beginning of his run to account for that.
We see those balls ALL the time from many players, sometimes people go "its genius" because a fast player catches it just before it goes out, and just as often people go "thats awful" because the fast player doesn't bother going for it, or isn't fast enough, and its the SAME pass both times.
AS for physical pressence, yes that is just about the only thing I think Rooney has that most don't, kind of like Gerrard, they are, "stocky" looking guys but able to shift it pretty fast when required. Rooney used to use that a lot, he doesn't any more. I've also said MANY times in the past the two longest runs of not good scoring or stats, but actual consistently good football from Rooney were the season here he scored 40 and stopped playing around in midfield, and the season he spent around 1/3rd of it on the left wing.
Anyway, yes, I've seen RVP knock the ball 50 yards down the field for someone to run on to, I've seen Huth do that dozens of times as well, sometimes the players catch up to the ball, sometimes not. In American football it would be called pretty much a hail mary "i'll kick it really really long, you just run, if you get it, you get it.
This is the other thing, I wouldn't call a "range of passing" something someone does once, or twice. Alonso constantly hits balls into the corner for people to run onto, he's known for it, Rooney is not, therefore it ISN'T a part of his game, maybe he can do it more frequently...... but he doesn't, so its irrelevant, anyone can do any kind of pass, and anyone can do a ridiculously epic pass SEVERAL times in their life time, Yakubu hitting four goals, things happen, if its something they do regularly, its "part of their game" and if they do it well consistently, its something they do well. If banging it into the corner infrequently somehow proves Rooney is a great passer..........
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Soldato
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But Rooney is known for it hence the number of times people have suggested he can play the "Scholes role", so your argument is basically redundant.
Not the ones you like I dont think I would, no.
Everyone has surely witnessed once you've got a player you like you go unduly overboard in your praise of them just like when you've got a player you dont like you go unduly overboard in the negativity towards them.
Either that or you're just a very understood individual
I wouldn't class Rooney as one of the best forwards in the world at all given his present form and alround career performance.
Take him in comparison to our best forward, and he is by no means world class.
Rooney - 417 appearances (64 as sub) and 176 goals and 3 goals in his last 13 England games.
Defoe - 448 appearances (126 as sub) and 185 goals and 4 goals in his last 6 England appearances. Not bad for a player who has played for clubs like Portsmouth and West Ham.
If Rooney is to be considered World Class he needs better stats than Defoe and by a long margin.
Yet apparently Drogba is worse than Rooney yet boasts 413 appearances (77 as sub) and 199 goals and 4 in his last 5 internationals.
Take him in comparison to our best forward, and he is by no means world class.
Rooney - 417 appearances (64 as sub) and 176 goals and 3 goals in his last 13 England games.
Defoe - 448 appearances (126 as sub) and 185 goals and 4 goals in his last 6 England appearances. Not bad for a player who has played for clubs like Portsmouth and West Ham.
If Rooney is to be considered World Class he needs better stats than Defoe and by a long margin.
Yet apparently Drogba is worse than Rooney yet boasts 413 appearances (77 as sub) and 199 goals and 4 in his last 5 internationals.
A good 2-3 years? yes. I wouldn't have classed him alongside the best forwards in the world prior to the last 12-18 months though.
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His short passing isn't great but his long range passing is among the best in the world due to his technique and vision. The only reason you don't see it more often is because 99% of the time he gets on the ball in the final third. You say plenty of other players are better but I've never seen van Persie, for example, do anything like this:
I've seen Dawson and Benny do them continually and as well at WHL for seasons now, and equally as accurate.
I wish people would cool it with the stats, there is a lot more to the game than purely who scores, and people are making the case for him as an all-round player, not an out and out goalscorer.
That settles it then, Dawson has the passing ability of Xavi. Lovely.
That settles it then, Dawson has the passing ability of Xavi. Lovely.
But do you not realise that your very same argument applies to Rooney as well?
Had his best ever goal scoring season in 09/10, ended that season with a massive injury away to Bayern to which both Man Utd and England rushed him back before he was ready...
The toll of that took it's effect on his start to the 10/11 season (it's also worth mentioning he wasn't the only player to come back from the WC not at their best, see arguably the best striker in world football before that WC Miss Torres).
Rooney ended last season fantastically though, DM posted that he scored 17 goals last season and whilst I haven't looked that up I know for a fact prior to Christmas last season he'd only scored 2 penalties meaning if DM's stats are correct 15 of his goals came during the second half of the season, that's not bad considering how pap he was for the first half.
This season he started brilliant, back to back hat-tricks goals galore his goals have dried up recently but then so has the performances of those around him Nani for example has been very poor by his standards bar our last 2 champions league games.
Credit to RVP especially last season when he broke the record of scoring away from home he's been getting goals in-spite of the poor performances of those around him that's something Rooney hasn't done for us over recent weeks.
At the end of the day though we're comparing someone who's in form to someone that isn't, at the start of the season when Rooney was scoring left right and centre RVP wasn't looking so great imo but neither were Arsenal. Now Arsenal are looking much better and RVP looks like he wont ever stop scoring braces week after week, us on the other hand aren't playing well and neither is Rooney. I'm sure at some point in the future the roles will be reversed again
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Caporegime
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I wasn't trying to disprove your stat's, that is simply your mistake, as per usual, despite what people say, I posted REASONS with ALL the stats.
He does have a good scoring record, very few players have even a 1 in 2 ratio, even great strikers of the past. However again, you used some basic stats with no reasoning but the stats to suggest Klose wasn't in fact great, I posted stats WITH reasoning to all but prove you wrong.
Lets do it without the stats.
Very good scoring rate, if not the best(which I never claimed anywhere) while playing in a defensive league without high scoring, while playing for a not top club. His interplay with his team is unbelievable, he's a fantastic leader, he is the only player EVER to score 4+ goals in 3 world cups, his scoring record for Germany THROUGHOUT his career has been phenomenal, he's made a crapload of substitute appearances in the past few years as he gets a bit older, which generally bring down your scoring/games ratio when you get another appearance tacked on to your stats, for 30 seconds at the end of a game.
He's having a phenomenal year scoring, assisting, internationally, in europe and in Serie A. He's had plenty of fantastic years.
Also for the record there are stats wrong on his wiki pages, I just won't tell you which ones(largely as they reduce his scoring rate slightly
well said. Kept telling hose lto to read your post before spouting rubbish on how your posts are rubbish. Once in a while these blooming read
Maybe not up with the very best, but he wasn't far away, he hasn't changed his level that much imo, he just added silly amounts of goals in the last year or so, his gameplay has been this good for a long time. What I'm trying to say is he's been remarkably consistent for about 2-3 years now, he's hardly had a bad game, never mind a bad spell of games, and I think goals aside that's what is special about RvP, he seems in control almost all the time. I think people have seen the rush of goals and think he's doing something different recently, which he is, he's getting in the 6 yard box a hell of a lot more often, but that's about it, his link up play has been scarily strong since 08-09
I personally think that's because he's matured and learnt the game well, and now I think his strongest asset is his intelligence, he might make a 5 yard pass that a lot of people think is just a 5 yard pass, but his movement after that pass and vision of how a move can progress are so advanced that a few seconds later he's got the ball back and about to score. He knows how to make goals
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Caporegime
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Exactly.