UEFA Champions League 6/7 December *** Spoilers ***

drunkenmaster said:
Eto'o, Villa, Messi, Ronaldo, RVP, Hernandez, Higuain, Soldado, Garcia, Benzema, Aguero, Dzeko, Drogba, Ibra, Klose, Muller, Di Natale, Huntelaar, Gomez, Podolski.
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Oh sweet Moses :eek:

Podolski better than Rooney? No
Gomez better than Rooney? No
Huntelaar better than Rooney? Jesus Christ No
Di Natale better than Rooney? No
Muller..... tough one but I dont think of him as a striker or even as a number 10. I think of him more as a Sneijder or Scholes of 2003 playing upfront
Klose better than Rooney? Jesus Christ No
Ibrahimovic he who moves clubs more times than tramps change their underwear better than Rooney? No
Drogba better than Rooney? Different type of player, on his last legs so No
Dzeko better than Rooney? No
Aguero better than Rooney? Arguable
Benzema better than Rooney? No
Garcia, Soldado & Hernandez better than Rooney? No
Higuain he who cant get in ahead of Benzema at Real Madrid better than Rooney? Not imo
Eto'o & RVP better than Rooney? Possibly
Villa better than Rooney? No

At the end of the day some of the above may well be better goal scorers than Rooney (Villa & RVP for example) but are they better all round players? No. Could any of them play in central midfield and do a pretty good job there? No. Do many of them have the same range of passing as Rooney? No. Even the best goal scorers go through droughts see Villa last season and he I admit is a better goal scorer than Rooney.

End of the day the English media like to build up Rooney and as a result a lot of people in this country then underrate him. Is he the best striker in the world? No. Is he one of the best in the world? Undoubtedly.
 
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BaZ87 said:
DM, you say the stats from wiki are wrong and then wrote an essay without disproving the stats.

Has Klose only scored 174 goals in 439 games at club level and has he only scored a goal every other game in 3 of his 13 seasons (which includes this season)?
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You said he hasn't scored close to 1 goal in 2 games this season, he has. I never claimed he'd done it his whole career, and your stat doesn't in any way disprove him being a great striker, in fact your stats didn't prove any thing. However yes, I did disprove some of them.

Would Rooney have scored as many as he had, in the Italian league if he played for an uncompetitive team for much of his career, no, would almost any striker, no, because that is what happens.

The only time he has consistently played with a top team through his career, was Germany, his scoring record for Germany is phenomenal, as is in particularly his world cup scoring record.
 
The answer you were looking for was yes. The stats I posted were correct, despite you saying they were wrong :)

I most certainly didn't say he hasn't scored 1 in 2 this season. If you could read, I very clearly point out that wiki's stats show that this season is 1 of only 3 seasons in his career that he has scored 1 in 2.

You saying "he's still scoring 1 in 2" suggests he's done so throughout his career. He hasn't. Again, he's only ever managed it in 3 of 13 seasons.
jonneymendoza said:
Another great post by DM putting others to shame
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If by simply writing a lot, none of which disproving what I or One More Solo posted, puts us to shame in your book then shame on you.
 
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jonneymendoza said:
Please learn how to read ok mate? Read his posts first
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I can read perfectly well thanks.

I posted stats which he stated were wrong. He then wrote a lot without disproving the stats, which you think puts me to shame. Please explain how it does. Or are you simply impressed by DM being able to write so much without answering the point he's quoted?
 
Tom you genuinely think Rooney is one of the top strikers in the world don't you? How do you explain periods like the last few months?

You do embarrass yourself by saying people like RvP don't have his passing range, RvP's technique puts Rooneys to shame, he might play the occasional 50 yard ball which makes the commentator squeal, but his short game is not up to scratch and no where near intelligent enough, as is commonly the case with English players.

Also judging strikers on how well they do in CM (Rooney wasn't good there ..) is maybe one of the strangest things I've seen posted here
 
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it does disprove your stats as wrong as he has stated some stats on the goals Klose has scored.

He mentiones the importants of some of Klose goals and comparing both rooney and Klose best season by stating how Klose had a beter goal to shot ratio then rooney and how Klose was only 7 goals below rooney's 40.

And how many goals has rooney scored in world cup? nuff said
 
Tom84 said:
Oh sweet Moses :eek:

Podolski better than Rooney? No
Gomez better than Rooney? No
Huntelaar better than Rooney? Jesus Christ No
Di Natale better than Rooney? No
Muller..... tough one but I dont think of him as a striker or even as a number 10. I think of him more as a Sneijder or Scholes of 2003 playing upfront
Klose better than Rooney? Jesus Christ No
Ibrahimovic he who moves clubs more times than tramps change their underwear better than Rooney? No
Drogba better than Rooney? Different type of player, on his last legs so No
Dzeko better than Rooney? No
Aguero better than Rooney? Arguable
Benzema better than Rooney? No
Garcia, Soldado & Hernandez better than Rooney? No
Higuain he who cant get in ahead of Benzema at Real Madrid better than Rooney? Not imo
Eto'o & RVP better than Rooney? Possibly
Villa better than Rooney? No

At the end of the day some of the above may well be better goal scorers than Rooney (Villa & RVP for example) but are they better all round players? No. Could any of them play in central midfield and do a pretty good job there? No. Do many of them have the same range of passing as Rooney? No.

End of the day the English media like to build up Rooney and as a result a lot of people in this country then underrate him. Is he the best striker in the world? No. Is he one of the best in the world? Undoubtedly.
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Higuain was injured, he has both scored 5 more than Benzema AND played in more league games now.

Drogba is past it so no....... even though Drogba dragged Chelsea through to the knockout stages of the UCL with an inspired performance and two goals.... while Rooney did what last night? Is this even serious? Drogba isn't past it, he GOT MALARIA, which while not deadly(treated) tends to knock you the **** out physically for a long time, and he still played, and he is still a beast. The only reason Drogba hasn't been at his best lately is the team is a god damned shambles and because some idiot spent 50mil on Torres its a point of saving face that Drogba gets dropped to get Torres games. So drogba played inconsistently after having a fairly serious reason for a drop in fitness, is still a freaking awesome player. The quality of Chelsea currently doesn't change that his all around game is better than Rooneys.

villa isn't better than Rooney, sure, goals in a international finals, winning loads of titles, out scoring Rooney loads, He has 18 goals this year already, he scored 34 last year, he scored 34 the year before and he scored 49 the year before that.

Rooney, 14 so far this year, 17 last year, 40 the year before that, and 27 the year before that. In the past 3 and a half seasons alone he has scored 37 goals more than Rooney, that's an entire other what, 1.5 seasons worth of Rooney goals on average that Villa has over him, and most of them he wasn't playing for the best team in the league, FAR from it.

Gomez has knocked out 28 more goals than Rooney in the same time frame.

Ibra, has scored 3 less goals than Rooney(yay, he beat someone on the list) but Ibra isn't hugely prolific, however his touch and ability put Rooney to shame, he's just a bit lazy and really hasn't done as well as he should have, he's still a better actual footballer than Rooney. How somehow moving teams makes him a better or worse player I don't know.


There is no question on most of the ones you think are arguable or close, some are actually close, most on the list aren't, Eto'o and RVP are arguable, better finishers, freekick tackers, better movement, better passing, better just about everything.


Again I mostly just asked for a single Utd fan to point out what it is Rooney is so good at, and I think (unless I missed it) I haven't seen anyone actually manage to explain.

Its laughable you think that Rooney has a great range of passing, or a good all around game, and he played in midfield, how many times exactly, and against who? RVP's passing/technical ability and range of passing is massively better than Rooney, thats the point, scoring or great all around game, Rooney isn't great AT EITHER of them, and the only time he's been brilliant infront of goal, he didn't do anything else.

The reason I picked most of them is they are either MUCH more prolific than Rooney on a consistent basic and/or they are MUCH better in the rest of their game.
 
jonneymendoza said:
it does disprove your stats as wrong as he has stated some stats on the goals Klose has scored.

He mentiones the importants of some of Klose goals and comparing both rooney and Klose best season by stating how Klose had a beter goal to shot ratio then rooney and how Klose was only 7 goals below rooney's 40.

And how many goals has rooney scored in world cup? nuff said
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Do you lack the ability to read and understand very simply things?

My posts states how many goals and games Klose has scored and played in his club career. None of what DM rambled on about disproved that.

I then said that in only 3 seasons has he scored a goal every other game in his club career. None of what DM rambled on about disproved that either.

Please tell me what DM said that disproved my post.
 
jakeke said:
Tom you genuinely think Rooney is one of the top strikers in the world don't you? How do you explain periods like the last few months?

Also judging strikers on how well they do in CM (Rooney wasn't good there ..) is maybe one of the strangest things I've seen posted here
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Villa went months without scoring for Barca does that mean he's not one of the top strikers in the world either?

Every single striker in the world has or does go through barren spells, RVN went through plenty when he was here was he not one of the best also?

As for your second part no it's not strange whatsoever, DM was posting players he thought was better than Rooney and like I said some of them may well be better goal scorers but that doesn't mean they're better all round players.

Let me ask you a question about RVP when he went through his routinely half a season injuries were you arguing his case of being the so called messiah of football then or is it just now that he's having a good yeah or so?
 
Tom84 said:
Villa went months without scoring for Barca does that mean he's not one of the top strikers in the world either?

Every single striker in the world has or does go through barren spells, RVN went through plenty when he was here was he not one of the best also?

As for your second part no it's not strange whatsoever, DM was posting players he thought was better than Rooney and like I said some of them may well be better goal scorers but that doesn't mean they're better all round players.

Let me ask you a question about RVP when he went through his routinely half a season injuries were you arguing his case of being the so called messiah of football then or is it just now that he's having a good yeah or so?
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Yeah, Villa has been relatively poor for a while and I certainly wouldn't group him as one of the best on the last 6 months (I've been quite vocal about Villa's demise recently, it's been shocking to see), though he has age as an excuse, Rooney doesn't. Also, Villa hasn't had them all the way through his career, Rooney has several months in every season where he stinks up the place, not talking about a dry spell, the guy can hardly trap a football much less play well. Last year it seemed as though he could hardly pass 10 yards for about 6 months.

RvP has always had stupid talent as you and everybody know, he just needed a run of games, he's proving how good he is now. I don't think he's the messiah of football, but he's better than Rooney who hasn't scored in 9 games iirc. I wonder how many Robin has scored in the last 9 games ..

For me consistency is very important, I think it proves talent, form is temporary and all that, Rooney is too regularly dreadful to be considered one of the best, I don't think that's outlandish, it's quite a sensible criteria imo.

Edit - Just to say I don't think he's a bad player, he's often good, occasionally unstoppable, but I don't like the constant assertion that he's world class and one of the best. If he played to his maximum every week (or more regularly) then he would be, but it's too rare and too fleeting when he does hit form
 
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BaZ87 said:
I can read perfectly well thanks.

I posted stats which he stated were wrong. He then wrote a lot without disproving the stats, which you think puts me to shame. Please explain how it does. Or are you simply impressed by DM being able to write so much without answering the point he's quoted?
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I wasn't trying to disprove your stat's, that is simply your mistake, as per usual, despite what people say, I posted REASONS with ALL the stats.

He does have a good scoring record, very few players have even a 1 in 2 ratio, even great strikers of the past. However again, you used some basic stats with no reasoning but the stats to suggest Klose wasn't in fact great, I posted stats WITH reasoning to all but prove you wrong.

Lets do it without the stats.

Very good scoring rate, if not the best(which I never claimed anywhere) while playing in a defensive league without high scoring, while playing for a not top club. His interplay with his team is unbelievable, he's a fantastic leader, he is the only player EVER to score 4+ goals in 3 world cups, his scoring record for Germany THROUGHOUT his career has been phenomenal, he's made a crapload of substitute appearances in the past few years as he gets a bit older, which generally bring down your scoring/games ratio when you get another appearance tacked on to your stats, for 30 seconds at the end of a game.

He's having a phenomenal year scoring, assisting, internationally, in europe and in Serie A. He's had plenty of fantastic years.

Also for the record there are stats wrong on his wiki pages, I just won't tell you which ones(largely as they reduce his scoring rate slightly :p )
 
drunkenmaster said:
RVP's passing/technical ability and range of passing is massively better than Rooney
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Based on what? You opinion because you're an Arsenal supporter. News Flash every single fan up and down the country thinks their teams players are the best. Do I agree with the above that RVP's range of passing is massively better than Rooney's? No I bloody do not. We'll probably have jakeke jumping in in a minute to agree with you but does him agreeing with you make it so either? No because news flash he's an Arsenal supporter too.

As for the rest of what you posted all you've gone on to do is provide a bunch of stats that show players who are better goal scorers than Rooney. Darren Bent is probably a better goal scorer than Rooney as well doesn't make him a better player though.

Couple of things I will point out from what I could I dead read from your last post Drogba had one good game Tuesday night the first in about a year is that your proof that he's not past his prime and on his way out? I'd agree that he along with every Chelsea striker has been mismanaged since Torres was signed but it's down to the player to impress when given the opportunity which Drogba up until Tuesday night hasn't done for quite a few months.

On Ibrahimovic you asked why it matters if he changes clubs a lot and the answer is if he really was one of the best strikers in the world do you not think his clubs would make more of an effort to keep him? Inter seemed to have no problem selling him to Barca who themselves couldn't get shot of him soon enough and why may I ask was there no one other than AC Milan wanting to snap him up? Even money is no option City weren't really that interested.
 
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Tom84 said:
Villa went months without scoring for Barca does that mean he's not one of the top strikers in the world either?

Every single striker in the world has or does go through barren spells, RVN went through plenty when he was here was he not one of the best also?

As for your second part no it's not strange whatsoever, DM was posting players he thought was better than Rooney and like I said some of them may well be better goal scorers but that doesn't mean they're better all round players.

Let me ask you a question about RVP when he went through his routinely half a season injuries were you arguing his case of being the so called messiah of football then or is it just now that he's having a good yeah or so?
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Actually yes, if people remember I was saying RVP was better than Bergkamp pretty much for the past 5 years, and got laughed at on here, by Arsenal fans, look how that turned out. RVP is and always has been a great player, been diminished by injuries and come back stronger.

The problem is, people keep going on about Rooney's all around game as a back up to his lack of scoring, but his all round game is pretty meh. He's no Xavi, he's no Scholes.

It's funny because when Berbatov drops deep, creates goals, uses his impeccable touch, its awful, and he's terrible and he should be sold, but when Rooney is in a bad scoring spell, its all those things people point to that Rooney can do, except he is NO WHERE NEAR as good as Berbatov at passing/touch/vision/creativity, etc, etc.

Villa went months without scoring, it was just under 2 iirc, and he still scored 23 for Barca, 34 in total, horrible season, truly horrible :p

Especially as he was played consistently out of position and in a new team.

His style/position/move hasn't worked perfectly for him, but his consistent scoring for Spain all last season and this season pretty much show he's still "got it", just Barca aren't really using him all that much.

Ibra was the same, in his truly awful year so bad they ditched a circa 80mil euro player all in, 20ish goals and got 11 assists for Barca.

Realistically just because Barca seem to have completely ridiculous expectations of a new player, doesn't mean he or Ibra had a bad season, just not there best, no where near their worst, and better than 99% of other players in Europe.
 
jakeke said:
For me consistency is very important, I think it proves talent, form is temporary and all that, Rooney is too regularly dreadful to be considered one of the best, I don't think that's outlandish, it's quite a sensible criteria imo.

Edit - Just to say I don't think he's a bad player, he's often good, occasionally unstoppable, but I don't like the constant assertion that he's world class and one of the best. If he played to his maximum every week (or more regularly) then he would be, but it's too rare and too fleeting when he does hit form
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Then the question I would ask you is if you dont believe Villa is one of the best who would you say is in the top 10 centre forwards in the world? Not counting Ronaldo and Messi. Would be interesting to see you put them in order as well ;)
 
Based on the fact that RvP is a magician with the ball and we spent 6 months of last year watching the ball bounce off Rooney's shin when he wanted to control the ball. Do you not remember the world cup? He had the technique of a pub player for 75% of that tournament, and that's only a bit of an exaggeration.
 
Tom84 said:
Then the question I would ask you is if you dont believe Villa is one of the best who would you say is in the top 10 centre forwards in the world? Not counting Ronaldo and Messi. Would be interesting to see you put them in order as well ;)
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If I watched the top 50 strikers week in, week out I'd be able to make that list with a clean conscience, but I can't pretend my list would be accurate so there's not much point really, nobody really cares about my opinion

Then you've got the question of form/career, Villa has had an absolutely marvellous career but on form he would be miles and miles from my top 10, I watch Barca most weeks and he has been so, so poor recently
 
Tom84 said:
Based on what? You opinion because you're an Arsenal supporter. News Flash every single fan up and down the country thinks their teams players are the best. Do I agree with the above that RVP's range of passing is massively better than Rooney's? No I bloody do not. We'll probably have jakeke jumping in in a minute to agree with you but does him agreeing with you make it so either? No because news flash he's an Arsenal supporter too.

As for the rest of what you posted all you've gone on to do is provide a bunch of stats that show players who are better goal scorers than Rooney. Darren Bent is probably a better goal scorer than Rooney as well doesn't make him a better player though.

Couple of things I will point out from what I could I dead read from your last post Drogba had one good game Tuesday night the first in about a year is that your proof that he's not past his prime and on his way out? I'd agree that he along with every Chelsea striker has been mismanaged since Torres was signed but it's down to the player to impress when given the opportunity which Drogba up until Tuesday night hasn't done for quite a few months.

On Ibrahimovic you asked why it matters if he changes clubs a lot and the answer is if he really was one of the best strikers in the world do you not think his clubs would make more of an effort to keep him? Inter seemed to have no problem selling him to Barca who themselves couldn't get shot of him soon enough and why may I ask was there no one other than AC Milan wanting to snap him up? Even money is no option City weren't really that interested.
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Couple things to point out, I think you'd have a VERY hard time convincing people around here I was unduly biased to Arsenal players and always think they are better than other players, likewise, I can state what RVP does well, against who and point out that he's not usually as prolific as he is now, his early years at Arsenal he was more a Bergkamp player, his game was mostly passing and setting people up, through balls, crossing, shooting from range, freekicks, dribbling up the wing and scoring from crazy angles.

RVP is better than Rooney, because he's better than Rooney, not because I'm an Arsenal fan.

Scholes is one of the best passers the game has ever seen...... HE is a great passer, Rooney is NOT, Rooney is a better passer than the majority of your currently fit team..... that doesn't make him a great passer. Anderson being better than Gibson compared to Gibson, is brilliant, compared to Scholes, is barely a footballer.

You are randomly assigning Rooney as better than all these players because they are ONLY goal scorers, the "only " goal scorers on that list are few and far between, most of them have better all around games than Rooney, and that is the point. I don't care about scoring, its about footballing ability, if you haven't got much footballing ability(technique, vision, intelligence, movement) then you are going to have to be a god damned goal scoring maniac to be a top player, and that is what the list is.

Podolski and Klose have proven themselves time and time again for club and country, brilliant players, the best ever, no, better than Rooney, yes.

As for Ibra, Inter got a better striker and bundles and bundles of cash when Mourinho had spent them into the poor house, it was an easy choice AND Ibra had wanted to play for Barca for years. Everything being said Ibra and Pep didn't get along, at all, maybe Pep is a ****, probably Ibra is a ****, doesn't make him any better or worse a footballer though.
 
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