Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[ubersonic]

They do not fall under the definition of 'militia' at all.

You do realise that the post of mine you quoted includes the definition of militia right? I will give it you gain as you seem to have missed it:

"generally refers to an army or other fighting force that is composed of non-professional fighters; citizens of a nation or subjects of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation, as opposed to a professional force of regular, full-time soldiers."

Even if (as you say) they are considered professional they still fall under the other criterias of a militia.

I happen to be a rabid leftist atheist if you must know, which has nothing to do with the issue of Russia currently preparing an invasion at the border of the EU.

Not trying to stir anything, it's a legitimate question, but would it really constitute an invasion if they were there at request of the local government to help defend their sovereignty?

To sum events up: Ukraine's president is deposed and a new pro EU government put in place, his departure is welcomed across the Ukraine but the new government receives mixed reactions especially in the Russian speaking areas. The area where most of the population are ethnic Russian (Crimea) goes as far as to denounce the new regime and put it's militia to the streets taking over government buildings.

Now following on from this if the Crimean authorities declare independence and ask Russia for help, is it technically invading the Ukraine as the government of a semi-autonymous region have legitimately declared independence?

Here is a good quote from a Crimean which sums up the feelings in the region:

The view from separatists in Crimea is that there has never been a better time to appeal to Moscow for help than now.

"I crossed two oceans and four seas with the Russian navy, and now I have fascists telling me what to do?" said Daniyel Romanenko, a 73-year-old retired officer, portraying the new Ukrainian leadership in the worst possible terms in a country that was overrun by Nazi Germany in World War Two.

"We should be given the choice to unite at last with Russia," he said at a rally in Sevastopol, wearing his uniform.

 

[ubersonic]

double post >.<

 

[Zethor]

Or maybe he expects you to be capable of using Google to search for confirmation of something you doubt?

That's not how you back up claims - I repeat, random references and random quotes are useless. You need to provide links which contain sources and which can be verified. Basic stuff, you two have not just discovered the Internet so why am I explaining this?

a Chechenia terrorist and two long term convicted nazi gang leaders in the new Ukrainian govt

These are big claims and they require proper evidence. Either present it or admit it doesn't exist as far as you know.

 

[Nerusy]

http://www.********.com/view?i=a86_1393511334

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-right-sector-militants-210/

Rest two he is talking about are probably leaders of Svoboda who were the muscles in maidan.

I don't think they are in control, from the reports I read the people in control are essentially previous government administration (who are just as bad as Yanukovych). It all sounds fantastic that they are technocrats and suicide government but given that last time they robbed the country what are the chances this time they will help the country?

we need to wait for the dust to settle and see whether extremist parties will have any say in the new formed administration, it's too early to say now, although svoboda leader did have enough influence to reverse the law on Russian language, making it illegal to use on municipal level.

 

[Zethor]

Not trying to stir anything, it's a legitimate question, but would it really constitute an invasion if they were there at request of the local government to help defend their sovereignty?

To sum events up: Ukraine's president is deposed and a new pro EU government put in place, his departure is welcomed across the Ukraine but the new government receives mixed reactions especially in the Russian speaking areas. The area where most of the population are ethnic Russian (Crimea) goes as far as to denounce the new regime and put it's militia to the streets taking over government buildings.

Now following on from this if the Crimean authorities declare independence and ask Russia for help, is it technically invading the Ukraine as the government of a semi-autonymous region have legitimately declared independence?

Here is a good quote from a Crimean which sums up the feelings in the region:

The Crimean authorities did not declare independence. Any Russian soldier that steps on Ukrainian soil, any air vehicle that enters its air space constitutes an invasion. The latter has already happened. I don't know if the situation continues to escalate but, so far, there are clear signs that Russia is preparing a military intervention.

 

[ubersonic]

The Crimean authorities did not declare independence.

That's why the post you quoted but apparently didn't read says "IF the Crimean authorities declare independence"

Any Russian soldier that steps on Ukrainian soil, any air vehicle that enters its air space constitutes an invasion. The latter has already happened. I don't know if the situation continues to escalate but, so far, there are clear signs that Russia is preparing a military intervention.

As I said though would it be classed as an invasion of the Ukraine if the troops are entering a region that has legitimately declared independence and sovereignty making it no longer Ukraine soil?

International law defines a sovereign state as "having a permanent population, a government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states." all of which applies to Crimea currently as it is already semi autonomous.

For reference the Crimean parliament voted yesterday to hold a referendum on independence.

*EDIT*

The funny thing is that the Crimean independence referendum has been scheduled for less than 24 hours and the question is already set, how long did it take the Scottish independence referendum to get that done? lol.

 

[Zethor]

I understand what you're saying but we're not discussing "IF's" here. The Russians have already invaded Ukrainian air space which makes all the talk about a hypothetical declaration of indepedence pointless. What happens in the future is a matter of debate, yes. I'm currently seeing aggressive actions from the Russian military and it leads me to think they are preparing an intervention which, at this point, would be a clear violation of international law. An invasion of a sovereign country. I really hope Putin doesn't do that, I hope he's carefully considering answers that involve diplomacy first and foremost (which would explain his odd silence during the last few days).

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/28/uk-ukraine-crisis-helicopters-idUKBREA1R0QO20140228

 

[ubersonic]

The thing is that Crimea is technically a sovereign state as said before, so if the new Ukrainian officials send the military in to take over (which they may well do as they have publically denounced the Crimean governments right to hold a referendum), it would be the same as if David Cameron had sent the army into Scotland after the SNP announced it would be holding an independence referendum. Crimea would be allowed to ask Russia for assistance and Russian would be legally allowed to oblige.

 

[Zethor]

The thing is that Crimea is technically a sovereign state as said before

You saying it doesn't make it so. Crimea is an autonomous region of the sovereign state of Ukraine. The rest of your argument is built on "may", "if", "would be" - food for thought but not much else. We're discussing facts here, the Russian troop movements is real not hypothetical.

 

[deuse]

So far it's EU\USA 0 Guys with big guns 1 liking that a lot.
And the UNs Security Council can't do a thing either.

 

[phill1978]

So far it's EU\USA 0 Guys with big guns 1 liking that a lot.
And the UNs Security Council can't do a thing either.

why? why are you enjoying the fact that a conflict like this will cost real lives. why are you also hating the EU / USA so much.. not saying im siding here but just wondering.

if russia could walk into our country without military reprisal they would and you would be dead.

 

[ubersonic]

You saying it doesn't make it so.

No but international law saying it does

the Russian troop movements is real not hypothetical.

Has it occurred to you they may be linked? I.E Putin knows the new Ukrainian government will most likely attempt to regain control of Crimea by force following Crimea's denunciation of the new Ukrainian government and deployment of it's militia, so he's getting ready to spring the trap and support Crimea, hell he may have even suggested doing those things to Crimea in order to force hands.

if russia could walk into our country without military reprisal they would and you would be dead.

Reminds me of a few years back when a pair of Russian supersonic nuclear bombers made a mock attack run on Hull and the RAF didn't even see them until they were headed home, kinda scary.

 

[thep02]

The Crimean authorities did not declare independence. Any Russian soldier that steps on Ukrainian soil, any air vehicle that enters its air space constitutes an invasion. The latter has already happened. I don't know if the situation continues to escalate but, so far, there are clear signs that Russia is preparing a military intervention.

Are you aware of the huge Russian military installations in the Crimea, they do not constitute an invasion, lol.

 

[scorza]

Are you aware of the huge Russian military installations in the Crimea, they do not constitute an invasion, lol.

It does if the troops stationed there take over the civilian airport.

 

[thep02]

It does if the troops stationed there take over the civilian airport.

Which they haven't.

 

[Darg]

Which they haven't.

Are you simple? Have you seen the pictures. It's not a frickin' militia that's taken control of the airport it's a professional armed force and it's not the Ukrainians, what other army could it be part of?

 

[ubersonic]

Are you simple? Have you seen the pictures. It's not a frickin' militia that's taken control of the airport it's a professional armed force and it's not the Ukrainians, what other army could it be part of?

If you had been reading the thread you would know that the Crimean militia is actually very well equipped (like all militias that are not from third world countries).

Russia's foreign ministry has admitted that armoured units from the Black Sea Fleet base near Sebastopol had entered Crimea in order to protect fleet positions.

It's on, like Donkey Kong.

*EDIT*

It appears that the Crimean government has just elected a new leader, the head of the Russian Unity movement [sarcasm] I am sure he will do a great job in talks with the new Ukranian government [/sarcasm].

 

[thep02]

Are you simple? Have you seen the pictures. It's not a frickin' militia that's taken control of the airport it's a professional armed force and it's not the Ukrainians, what other army could it be part of?

Are you a moron those images prove nothing, the elderly gentleman in uniform I saw at the airport was a local in an anti fascist militia organised for the defence of Crimea from Ukrainian nazi's.

 

[deuse]

why? why are you enjoying the fact that a conflict like this will cost real lives. why are you also hating the EU / USA so much.. not saying im siding here but just wondering.

if russia could walk into our country without military reprisal they would and you would be dead.

How many times have we seen the EU and the US invade a country for no reason at all and the country ends up worse off?

They're just bully boys and it's only Russia that stands up to them.

 

[ubersonic]

How many times have we seen the EU and the US invade a country for no reason at all and the country ends up worse off?

They're just bully boys and it's only Russia that stands up to them.

So true it's funny, remember a few years back where Russia was against interference in Libya, so we settled for a no fly zone, then bombed the absolute hell out of the country pretty much winning the entire civil war for the rebels who never stood a chance?

And we have the gaul to try and tell Russia off XD