Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Who are the rebels? The Pro Russians or the.... I don't even understand the situation now.

OK i thought there were a 3rd faction too. Im getting my Civil wars mixed up ;p
 
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scorza said:
You do support Ukraine's right to self-determination don't you?
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Indeed, which is why I believe this should not have been done during a major civil conflict (just like elections should not have been held when a large amount of people are unable to vote and certain popular parties are banned), especially as this was/is a major contention issue of the conflict!
 
ubersonic said:
Indeed, which is why I believe this should not have been done during a major civil conflict (just like elections should not have been held when a large amount of people are unable to vote and certain popular parties are banned), especially as this was/is a major contention issue of the conflict!
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Great idea. No elections, meaning no leadership, meaning even less stability - just what the country needs during a "major civil conflict". :rolleyes:
 
Zethor said:
Great idea. No elections, meaning no leadership, meaning even less stability - just what the country needs during a "major civil conflict". :rolleyes:
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It already had an interim leader recognised by half of the country, now it has an "official" leader recognised by half of the country, what's changed? apart from his ability to enter into trade agreements vehemently opposed by a substantial amount of the populous.


thep02 said:
So a non representative oligarch leader elected in a deeply flawed election is better in a time of war, err yeah:rolleyes:
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Indeed.
 
Ok folks.... all of you reds, go over to your corner. All of you blues, go that way. This Crimea bit is going to be a militarized zone for the UN to sit in, a tourist attraction, a giant Vodka factory and used as a big movie set to make the Metro 2033 film.

It will be policed by drones and killer robots.

World peace restored.
 
thep02 said:
So a non representative oligarch leader elected in a deeply flawed election is better in a time of war, err yeah:rolleyes:
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Both your claims (non representative and flawed election) are false. The elections were overseen by international observers, their reports are available online, feel free to read them if you're curious.

ubersonic said:
It already had an interim leader recognised by half of the country, now it has an "official" leader recognised by half of the country, what's changed? apart from his ability to enter into trade agreements vehemently opposed by a substantial amount of the populous.
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The EU trade agreement is vehementaly opposed by a substantial amount of the populous in the UK too (UKIP's recent score) yet I haven't seen any helicopters shot down here. Odd, isn't it? Since when does a minority dictate what a whole country can and can't do?
 
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ubersonic said:
Indeed, which is why I believe this should not have been done during a major civil conflict (just like elections should not have been held when a large amount of people are unable to vote and certain popular parties are banned), especially as this was/is a major contention issue of the conflict!
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I've asked you to provide a source on your claim that certain popular parties were banned from the election before. Incidentally there were over 3000 international observers monitoring the election and the only place there were problems were in areas controlled by the pro-Russian militias, denying the Ukrainian population's right to self-determination.

The choice that faced Ukraine was to either a) have a power vacuum at the top as the former PM was so bad he had to flee the country, b) continue with an acting PM who has limited powers compared to an elected PM, c) elect a new PM. Given the situation c) was the only sensible decision.

I accuse you of basically just supporting the Putin view that Ukraine should remain a vassal state of Russia and that Russian troops should be allowed to patrol Ukraine's borders with the EU - which was part of the deal Putin was offering.
 
ubersonic said:
It already had an interim leader recognised by half of the country, now it has an "official" leader recognised by half of the country, what's changed? apart from his ability to enter into trade agreements vehemently opposed by a substantial amount of the populous.
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You're over-estimating the part of Ukraine that doesn't recognise the outcome from the election:

640px-Ukrainian_Presidential_Election_2014_Map.png


The light grey areas are districts that voted for Poroshenko, the dark grey areas are where the separatist insurgency prevented free and fair elections from being held, the blue bit voted for someone else other than Poroshenko and the white bit is the bit nicked by Russia. Turnount for the election was ~60% in the light grey areas.
 
scorza said:
I've asked you to provide a source on your claim that certain popular parties were banned from the election before.
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And IIRC I did so, many Pro Russian parties were barred and many voters were prevented from voting (mostly pro-Russian)


scorza said:
I accuse you of basically just supporting the Putin view that Ukraine should remain a vassal state of Russia and that Russian troops should be allowed to patrol Ukraine's borders with the EU - which was part of the deal Putin was offering.
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And I deny that, I don't like Putin or his views.
 
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