Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Eh!! WW2 with nukes, we could call it WW3!

;) :rolleyes:

It's shocking to think that only 70 years have passed, and history is threatening to repeat itself.

The human race is a disgrace.
 
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So, when Russia sweeps through the Ukraine and reclaims it, what then?

Oh you think russia's going to launch a full scale assault? interesting. What about if ukraine manages to hold or push back the rebels since we are working in "what aboutisms"

I would imagine Poland and the baltics would pile in and I wouldn't be surprised if the US would as well. Us and the French could commit forces as well. Germans maybe but I wouldn't count on it.

If your keeping score that is the stack set heavily against the russians, Despite what the daily mail figures chart has told you they are not a superpower any more and have gone through some quite drastic cuts themselves. But then its a hypothetical and basically meaningless. However even if the worst was to happen, it is certainly not "the UK vs russia - oh the calamity, We aren't the power we were in the crimean war so there's no point doing anything ever, sniff"

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And nor is sending 75 training troops going to start ww3 so please put the hanky away. You sound oddly hysterical for the situation, where was this hand wringing when 2 NATO countries started a Combined brigade with ukraine?
 
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Skoda mart is another arek. A poster who likes to post a lot of hog wash about stuff he doesn't really understand or have any real credential to comment on. So like Arek, save your keyboard, politely smile and move on. I mean just look at the comments about WW2, Hitler and British Empire. Lol.
 
Oh you think russia's going to launch a full scale assault? interesting. What about if ukraine manages to hold or push back the rebels since we are working in "what aboutisms"

I would imagine Poland and the baltics would pile in and I wouldn't be surprised if the US would as well. Us and the French could commit forces as well. Germans maybe but I wouldn't count on it.

If your keeping score that is the stack set heavily against the russians, Despite what the daily mail figures chart has told you they are not a superpower any more and have gone through some quite drastic cuts themselves. But then its a hypothetical and basically meaningless. However even if the worst was to happen, it is certainly not "the UK vs russia - oh the calamity, We aren't the power we were in the crimean war so there's no point doing anything ever, sniff"


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And nor is sending 75 training troops going to start ww3 so please put the hanky away. You sound oddly hysterical for the situation, where was this hand wringing when 2 NATO countries started a Combined brigade with ukraine?

You think Ukraine will stand against Putin? Seriously?

There's no sniff / hankey about it, he's a very dangerous man that just happens to be President of one of the most powerful countries in the world.

Let's face it, a nuke will make a mess of the UK.
 
Skoda mart is another arek. A poster who likes to post a lot of hog wash about stuff he doesn't really understand or have any real credential to comment on. So like Arek, save your keyboard, politely smile and move on. I mean just look at the comments about WW2, Hitler and British Empire. Lol.

Only a fool wouldn't learn from history.

And in the same vein history is set to repeat itself, over and over.
 
You think Ukraine will stand against Putin? Seriously?
I thought we were dealing in pointless what aboutisms that have no bearing on the current situation?

btw I could also mention that if russia went for ukraine properly we could just pull our forces out and work on a unified response later with our allies. I'm not trying to predict the future here.

There's no sniff / hankey about it, he's a very dangerous man that just happens to be President of one of the most powerful countries in the world.
You are strawmaning a fallacy of relevance.

Let's face it, a nuke will make a mess of the UK.
I agree with your completely irrelevant assertion that is based loosely on the same topic of the situation that stands. Did you know a nuke would make a mess of russia as well? (this does not imply I want to nuke russia, that this might happen at all or that its even part of the debate)

Skoda mart is another arek. A poster who likes to post a lot of hog wash about stuff he doesn't really understand or have any real credential to comment on. So like Arek, save your keyboard, politely smile and move on. I mean just look at the comments about WW2, Hitler and British Empire. Lol.
Yes but my eyes itch when I read them :(

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png


In other news Poland is also sending instructors to Ukraine, as well as the Combined Brigade Initiative previously mentioned.

And moody's has just downgraded 12 russian banks and new sanctions are being drawn up by the EU due to continued aggression at Mariupol and ignoring Minsk 2
 
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Yes, you've had your rant about how crap the UK is, we've heard your expert breakdown of how the war was won against the Germans and we now know how well we would fare on the world stage in combat against another nation, thank you.

FYI, the American military (the one with the biggest budget by far) buy their own boots too :eek:
 
I thought we were dealing in pointless what aboutisms that have no bearing on the current situation?

The correct course of action is for all of the NATO countries to make a stand now, and stop it before it escalates into the inevitable, the other option is to let Putin take the Ukraine in the same way Germany took Poland.

The 'problem' I see is that other countries are far less willing to get involved with foreign affairs like this and it usually ends up just the usual UK and USA scapegoat world police disaster.
 
Yes, you've had your rant about how crap the UK is, we've heard your expert breakdown of how the war was won against the Germans and we now know how well we would fare on the world stage in combat against another nation, thank you.

FYI, the American military (the one with the biggest budget by far) buy their own boots too :eek:

READ what I post!

I said the UK had 'very impressive' armed forces.

However we are a tiny country on a budget.

If you mistake tiny for crap that's your problem not mine.
 
So your point is simply "we are tiny". This has no bearing on anything being discussed. I think your grasp on world affairs is rather skewed.
 
You're entirely missing the point.

Firstly, Israel considers itself to be the homeland of the Jews. The Jewish identity is undeniably complex, but most people accept that it is both a religion and an ethnic group. Not everyone may agree on that point, but Israel is clear on it.

The anti-semites make the argument that attacking Israel is not the same as attacking the Jewish people, because Israel is simply the state and not the people. So when they say 'burn Israel' what they actually mean is 'burn the Israeli state'. Which is why I said (facetiously) the calls to nuke 'Russia' were fine, because obviously it meant as a reference to the Russian state and not the Russian people.

What that argument ignores of course is that the "state" of an ethnic body such as Russia or Israel is the political manifestation of the nation. Thus an attach on the state IS an attack on the people.
What you're missing though is Russian is a nationality not an ethnicity (if you want to use that argument). In fact Russia will have a multitude of native ethnicities.

If you're going down the ethnicity argument it doesn't work because Russian isn't an ethnicity but if you're going down the nationality route then that also doesn't work as Judaism is isn't a nationality...

I do agree on the final point (to an extent) that an attack on a country can be construed as an attack on the countries people (such as an attack on Israel can be seen as an attack on Israelis, but not Jews in general - especially as currently you don't have to be Jewish to be Israeli, but that may change if certain laws are passed - unless it is attacked specifically to harm Jewish people).
 
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So your point is simply "we are tiny". This has no bearing on anything being discussed. I think your grasp on world affairs is rather skewed.

OK, crack on.

To battle men!! 'Ave at em!!

Over the top lads!! - Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes!!
 
Britain WAS a world power, we were a force to be reckoned with.

WAS = past, history, gone...

We are too small to act as 'world police' it's an utter joke and a massive drain on our resources - as well as a waste of UK forces lives.

Lets face it, standing up to Germany during WW2 was very impressive but if it wasn't for Hitler fighting on all fronts we would be now speaking German.

We have very impressive armed forces, but please don't be a fool and compare us to Russia.

Problem is the legacy of the British Empire still exists (Not that this is really relevant in terms of the Ukraine and Russia mind) a certain amount we can't just undo or walk away from.

What really ****** us in WW2 was to be frank largely what is happening now - investment in the armed forces had dropped off and while it did start to be bolstered from about 1935 to the outbreak of war units were largely still sent out under-equipped, under-prepared, cuts made to some key parts of the services, etc. with the outlook that war was unlikely (despite the signs) so why bother and so it ended up more costly in the long run. I'd really hate to see this happen again.

I agree with your completely irrelevant assertion that is based loosely on the same topic of the situation that stands. Did you know a nuke would make a mess of russia as well? (this does not imply I want to nuke russia, that this might happen at all or that its even part of the debate)

We'd struggle to make more than a statement nuking Russia - if we detonated our single largest current operational warhead over the centre of Moscow people in the suburbs would barely know it had happened (obviously that isn't taking into account the actual usage of them in a real attack or the global/environmental impact) - on the flipside a single Russian ICBM with 4-5 warheads could incapacitate approx 20% of our military capabilities stationed in the South West of the UK as an example.
 
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I'm aware of that but you used Libya as an example, where the mission didn't creep at all. support rebels, get civvies out of there, bomb gaddafi, help co-ordinate strikes, done then left them to it.

Or look at the French in Mali still going at it.

That said I think "mission creep" is a poor and misused term. Threats and the situation evolve. you cant keep doing the same thing a year later if everything has changed on the ground.
What should happen is, weigh how far we can commit, *dont announce it* and then work within that border, reassessing periodically. Again the french have been doing this brilliantly in Mali.

You've just succinctly named much of the mission creep in Libya. The UN resolution was solely about policing a no fly zone, it was NOT to take sides in the conflict. We did that. The government then said there would be no boots on the ground - that was one of the reasons it went through without being booted out of parliament. Unfortunately as the conflict continued more British forces were deployed on the ground, in part to evacuate, in part to coordinate with rebels and in part to train.

It's a prime example of mission creep.

I especially like this quote from this article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12799937

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson asked about the "potential for mission creep", with Mr Cameron replying that the UN resolution was about protecting civilians: "I've been clear. I think Libya needs to get rid of Gaddafi. But in the end we are responsible for trying to enforce this Security Council resolution. The Libyans must choose their own future."

Angus Robertson obviously had some foresight...

I also like this.

Mr Cameron appeared to back Gen Richards, saying that "the UN resolution is limited in its scope. It explicitly does not provide legal authority for action to bring about Gaddafi's removal from power by military means.
Which we did. The rebels were a few weeks from capitulation and our intervention was the reason Gadaffi lost, after much of his military/security infrastructure and equipment was destroyed by target strikes from us.

Mr Cameron replied: "This is different to Iraq. This is not going into a country, knocking over its government and then owning and being responsible for everything that happens subsequently. This is about protecting people and giving the Libyan people a chance to shape their own destiny."
No, we went in, knocked out the government (see previous statement about resolution limits) and then left the Libyans to sort out the mess we left them in. Guess what, it's now a failed state. Nice to see not taking ownership of the ****storm that happened next was all part of the plan.

The whole "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice..." Comes to mind, and it's almost certainly (along with Iraq) the reason the motion to join in the Syrian conflict was voted down.

You are right, priorities change and new battles have to be fought that may not have publically been announced at the beginning of a campaign, unfortunately for the government MPs are starting to get wise of that, especially now it is becoming increasingly obvious that much of it is foreseen before any action is taken, they (and the public) are told. Especially if that oversteps the bounds of the resolution that the vote was based on in the fist place (like Libya).
 
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Britain WAS a world power, we were a force to be reckoned with.

WAS = past, history, gone...

We are too small to act as 'world police' it's an utter joke and a massive drain on our resources - as well as a waste of UK forces lives.

Lets face it, standing up to Germany during WW2 was very impressive but if it wasn't for Hitler fighting on all fronts we would be now speaking German.

We have very impressive armed forces, but please don't be a fool and compare us to Russia.

You do realise that sheer land mass has nothing to do with power right? Britain is economically far stronger than Russia for a start. The only benefit Russia has is that it's population is about double that of the UK. Yes it has a large army but much of it is in disrepair and poorly trained. Politically it is isolated but it does have a lot of power there, more than the UK? Maybe, but not much more.

There are many facets of "power", geographic extent is a long way down the list.
 
It's a prime example of mission creep.
Fair enough.
Perhaps I should say Mission Creep isn't wholly a bad thing or something to be avoided no matter what, this fits better with the second paragraph of the post you quoted.

The whole "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice..." Comes to mind, and it's almost certainly (along with Iraq) the reason the motion to join in the Syrian conflict was voted down.

Really? I thought it was mainly the well supplied conventional military threat with a lack of clarity on who to arm on the other side for no major positive outcome.
We do after all still have boots on the ground in Iraq and are bombing them, which has the same risks of "creep" and is part of the same conflict. We just avoided the bigger hornets nest.

Norway restructuring entire military based on new threat....
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...re-military-in-response-to-russian-aggression

Norway’s defence minister has said her country’s armed forces will be restructured so they can respond faster to what she called increased Russian aggression.

Ine Eriksen Soreide said that Russia had recently re-opened military bases in its far north that had been shut down after the cold war, and that there had also been an increase in flights by Russian warplanes close to Norwegian airspace.

“We have seen in the first couple of months of this year a certain increase compared to the same period last year and ... an increased complexity. We see they fly longer, they fly with more different kinds of airplanes and their patterns are different than they used to be,” Soreide told the Guardian during a visit to London.

Soreide said Norway was stepping up military cooperation with the Baltic states – Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania – as a means of reassuring them that they were fully covered by Nato’s collective security umbrella. Furthermore, Norway was “absolutely” ready to expand training of Ukrainian soldiers, she said, predicting that more Nato states would follow the British example of dispatching trainers and non-lethal equipment to support Ukraine.
 
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Eh!! WW2 with nukes, we could call it WW3!

;) :rolleyes:

It's shocking to think that only 70 years have passed, and history is threatening to repeat itself.

The human race is a disgrace.

Why are you shocked? The last 50 years are an anomaly for the UK. We in Europe are a generation that have grown up in relative peace, precious generations have always had war looming over them. WW2, WW1, Franco Prussian, Napoleonic wars etc. etc.. We never seem to learn from our mistakes...
 
Fair enough.
Perhaps I should say Mission Creep isn't wholly a bad thing or something to be avoided no matter what, this fits better with the second paragraph of the post you quoted.

Seems reasonable, just as long as that is made clear at the beginning. Which it generally isn't. And as I said before if it doesn't break the remit of the UN resolution (which we essentially tore spare and wiped out ***** with in Libya).


Really? I thought it was mainly the well supplied conventional military threat with a lack of clarity on who to arm on the other side for no major positive outcome.
We do after all still have boots on the ground in Iraq and are bombing them, which has the same risks of "creep" and is part of the same conflict. We just avoided the bigger hornets nest

Are you still talking about Libya here? ;)

If we had got involved on Syria the outcome would almost certainly have been the same as Libya, including the "unauthorised" mission creep. Tribal warfare, with many different factions should not be what we should be getting involved in, whether it be Libya or Syria.

Edit: I think the current events do show the shortsightedness of the restructuring our forces away from conventional warfare towards the "war on terror". While we needed the equipment to look after our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan the detrimental affect on convention warfare equipment should have been dealt with, rather than the short sighted money pinching that did happen. Those Nimrods and Destroyers may come in handy yet - shame we cut up the former...
 
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Amp34 said:
Edit: I think the current events do show the shortsightedness of the restructuring our forces away from conventional warfare towards the "war on terror". While we needed the equipment to look after our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan the detrimental affect on convention warfare equipment should have been dealt with, rather than the short sighted money pinching that did happen. Those Nimrods and Destroyers may come in handy yet - shame we cut up the former...
Yes the SDR after the election will be interesting. Hammond is trying to drum up support for increase in budget, we have capability gaps that need filling and yet no-ones openly saying budget increase and the chancellor and Tories are being quiet to whether they will even stick to the 2% agreed past 2016.

As an aside... https://news.vice.com/article/spooked-by-russia-lithuania-is-reintroducing-military-conscription

NATO is slowly waking up to the fact they may be relevant again.

And Ukraines currency has plummeted and stopped trading
 
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^^ Was some news floating around about 5 hours ago about not sticking to the agreed 2%.

Under investment in the armed forces right now is a very bad move IMO and might (though I sincerely hope not) come back to bite us in the rear.
 
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