Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[Jokester]

It would be more idiotic to assume that Putin murdered a man who was worth to him more alive (as a joke of opposition) than dead (a martyr for the west)

When he spared this fate to his most feared opponent in fear that his death would back-fire on both world and internal arena... Showing that Putin`s direct order of Nemtsov made absolute 0 sense, and disproving your belief that Putin gives zero monkeys about public opinion.

Quote where I've said Putin doesn't care about public opinion. You're trying to back up your argument with a point that I've not made.

That is a very childish and utopian thing to say.

I repeat, everything in current world, is seen through comparison.

Your A-Level, GCSES, SAT, ACT are measured against your ability to perform against your peers.

You simply can not isolate Russia and judge them "perfect" perspective when no other nation is even close.

Its same as calling someone dumb with B`s for GCSE`s while having D`s yourself, while taking exactly same test...

You're speaking gibberish to be honest. Is this some sort of attempt at diversion? I don't have a history of political assassination so I am quite free to criticise regimes that partake in it, whether it's the US or Russia (a key nation involved in the topic that this particular thread is about ). Also not everything is relative, things can also be absolute.

 

[Danny75]

You're speaking gibberish to be honest. Is this some sort of attempt at diversion?

No, he's just making too much sense for your liking, is all.

 

[ubersonic]

- Countries including west, sign a pact which dictates that Yanukovich will step down in couple months and elections will be held.

Yeah right. Any source on this West signed pact?

Here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26289318

- Euromaidan storms government by force, ignoring all previous reached and recognized agreements --- West Supports.

Yanukovich fled his post in Ukraine by helicopter to Russia before any storming occured when he realised the game was up after shooting dead protesters?

Actually he was on a scheduled trip to one of Ukraine's major cities when the storming occurred.

- Euromaidan leaders remove Yanukovich unconstitutionally (not enough votes reached) and this is all under essentially pro-right activists being inside Rada --West Supports.

The country was left leader-less and so the MPs in parliament were left to pickup the peices

He was unable to return due to the unrest in the capital.

- First law new government tries to push through is to remove Russian language along with other anti-russian - soviet ideologies -- West is Silent.

Nope. Yanukovich introduced a law in 2012 allowing the Russian language to be officially used in Ukraine, this simply reverted it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine

So if Labour get elected in may and Ed's first act is to ban gay marrige that would be fine as the torys introduced it? Equal rights for the tens of millions of Ukrainians who speak Russian as a first language was not automatically a bad thing because it involves Russian...

- Temproary government wants to sign EU deal way before elections took place -- West Supports.

Have a read of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–European_Union_relations "In May 2010, President Viktor Yanukovych promised to adopt in June 2010" so they wanted to do what was promised? Right.

And Yanukovych made good on his promise in 2013 (delays had been out of his hands) however the EU changed it's mind and back peddled saying that Ukraine must toughen it's anti-discrimination laws first. this is why the new government had to implement anti discrimination laws in 2014 (and ironically why they had to back down on some of their new anti-Russian laws).

Surely it is interest of the people to wait until after elections are held before implementing things which will massively impact the country, as opposed to a temporary government installed following a coup just rushing through what it likes?

 

[Jokester]

No, he's just making too much sense for your liking, is all.

lol

His GCSE thing is a huge logical fallacy, you do realise that?

 

[Nutella33]

I'll just leave this here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Whataboutism is a nickname for the tactic used by the Soviet Union in its dealings with the Western world during the Cold War. When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union, the response would be "What about..." followed by the naming of an event in the Western world.[1][2] It represents a case of tu quoque or the appeal to hypocrisy, a logical fallacy which attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position, without directly refuting or disproving the opponent's initial argument.

In 2008, The Economist claimed that this tactic is observed in the politics of modern Russia, along with this being evidence of a resurgence of Cold War and Soviet-era mentality within Russia's leadership

here...

Mediated, not signed by the EU. you may also note the reaction to such a deal

The opposition leaders who signed the deal were booed and called traitors by a crowd in Independence Square, the focal point of the protests, the BBC's Gavin Hewitt reports from Kiev.

It was a dirty deal between politicians and the protesters didnt trust it or yanukovych so continued protesting.

Actually he was on a scheduled trip to one of Ukraine's major cities when the storming occurred.

not really, he left for karkiv (on the russian border) with personal belongings after trying to fly out of donestk. Its also been noted since that he had been gathering his stuff for a few days before the "official trip"

In a television interview the station said was conducted in the northeastern city of Kharkiv, Yanukovich said he would not resign or leave the country, and called decisions by parliament "illegal".

"The events witnessed by our country and the whole world are an example of a coup d'etat," he said, comparing it to the rise of the Nazis to power in Germany in the 1930s.

Interfax news agency said border guards refused to let Yanukovich exit the country when he tried to fly out from the eastern city of Donetsk.

He was unable to return due to the unrest in the capital.

So he could not lead, thus leaderless. So the MP's voted.

So if Labour get elected in may and Ed's first act is to ban gay marrige that would be fine as the torys introduced it? Equal rights for the tens of millions of Ukrainians who speak Russian as a first language was not automatically a bad thing because it involves Russian...

The language law doesn't mean you cant use it or ban anyone from speaking it. just that its not the official language. no one has lost rights.

And Yanukovych made good on his promise in 2013 (delays had been out of his hands) however the EU changed it's mind and back peddled saying that Ukraine must toughen it's anti-discrimination laws first.

The EU didnt change its mind randomly then. it had been a stated fact it was a barrier since 2011, which is when she was jailed.

However, in 2011 the European Union High Representative for Foreign Affairs, Catherine Ashton, warned Ukraine that although talks about an European Union Association Agreement with Ukraine would continue, the ratification process of the treaty "will face problems if there is no reversal in the approach of Ukrainian authorities" towards the trial of former Prime Minister of Ukraine Yulia Tymoshenko

 

[areksnumbr1sxylady]

Quote where I've said Putin doesn't care about public opinion. You're trying to back up your argument with a point that I've not made.

It has absolutely never bothered him that people are watching. His position is one of showing absolute strength.

There's no tin foil hats to be worn here, plenty of evidence to say the Russian state engages in dirty activities.

100% agree with you here

I never said that what Russia is doing is "right" I was not joking when I agreed with you that there is plenty of evidence to suggest Russian wrong-doing.

Both when I agreed that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Russia is a Mafia state and when admitting Putin has been involved in very dark practices during his career.

Also not everything is relative, things can also be absolute.

Your mere existance is relative to the point of universe... You do not exist to an alien who is 1 billion light years away. Simple as. Hell, you havent even been born to someone who is 50 odd light years away from us.

In short I am saying 2 things.

1) Given past history of Putin, there is more than enough of evidence to suggest that he was not behind the Nemtsov killing as the west is portraying.

2) While Putin is a bad person, the current world we live in, is bad. We in the west with our practises are not exactly far away from the "monster Putin" so its a bit weird when we speak from point of morality when we have been proved to be involved in insanely bad things.

We need to change ourselves and that will remove people like Putin automatically.

To dumb it down, lets use this as an example:

We live in post-acalyptical world where food is short, we (west) steal the food and everything is good, we are fed and happy. Once Russia tries to steal the food, they are labelled as terrorists and thiefs (correct from "utopian" view) by OURSELVES. However, due to the nature of the world, if you do not steal the food, you dont survive. simple as. Russians dont understand why cant they steal the food when we are doing it and why are they labelled as thiefs by us, who have been doing it for as long as anyone can remember?

In short, everyone is bad, we are just arguing who is worse.

 

[ubersonic]

So he could not lead, thus leaderless. So the MP's voted.

Yes, they voted to keep him in power, then the leaders of the parliment removed him anyway. It's because he was deposed unlawfully and by force that so many in Ukraine (and on this forum) consider it a coup.

The language law doesn't mean you cant use it or ban anyone from speaking it. just that its not the official language. no one has lost rights.

Actually everyone who speaks Russian as a first language (over a third of Ukrainians) has lost their right to be treated the same as others. If Canada did away with French's bilingual status you would see a lot of anger too. Hell here in Wales only around 10% of people even speak Welsh let alone as a first language and if it lost it's bilingual status there would be riots!

The EU didnt change its mind randomly then. it had been a stated fact it was a barrier since 2011, which is when she was jailed.

The EU ratified then finalised the agreement with Ukraine in early 2013, then in late 2013 it put everything on hold and backpedaled out of nowhere, that's called randomly changing your mind.

 

[ubersonic]

things can also be absolute.

Only a sith deals in absolutes!

 

[Harlequin]

1) Everyone with more than 1 brain cell in the head, in the west, understands that this guy is hopeless and will never be a President in the Russia... A.k.a he is worthless alive to the west. Dead, is another story.

2) This is the same guy who talked that if he is in power, he will remove Russia`s nuclear arsenal.

3) This guy been found to be financially supported by the West, rightly so, if he came to power, it would be amazing for us... Russia which abides by our rules and does not have nukes, dream come true.

Now wake up and realize what a joke of a person this is to a normal Russian on the street and weigh in his chances of ever even getting 1% votes in the election polls.

To Putin this guy is so much more worth Alive because it shows "democracy" and portrays opposition as a joke due to their policies.

do you get paid to be a KGB mouthpiece?

 

[do_ron_ron]

snowdon or manning aren't dead from radioactive poisoning. John Kiriakou is still alive, Thomas Tamm is walking around, thomas drake leaked from the NSA...1 year jail time. same with Russ Tice. Sam Provance disclosed the Abu Ghraib prison interrogations and got a letter from a previous president congratulating him. Katherine Gun leaked info from GCHQ on the run up to a war... didn't even go to jail.

In fact theres a big ass list of whistleblowers from security services and government posts and none of them end up radioactive, one is even still in his job!

As I said

Russian spy defects, gives secrets and is paid by UK. Side he betrayed kills him.
Do you really think the UK or US would not/do not or try to do the same?????????

None of the above is a spy. Litvenko was and the UK would do the same. The others are informers of poor Govt practise. Manning got 35 years, hardly a slap on the wrist. They cannot get to Snowdon but if they could they will get him back to the US and life imprisonment and probably a little waterboarding as that seems to be the current US vogue.

 

[Jokester]

Originally Posted by Jokester
It has absolutely never bothered him that people are watching. His position is one of showing absolute strength.

That isn't actually a statement of what you think it is. He cares about opinion, why do you think he likes to be seen as a strong leader? It doesn't bother him if these things happen publicly, because it shows his people, both the ordinary public and those in the regime who's in charge.

In short, everyone is bad, we are just arguing who is worse.

No we're not, trying to justify immoral/unethical/illegal acts on the basis that other people do them isn't reasonable.

I'm above average height by the way (relative) - 6 feet (absolute).

GCSE's are also not a relative performance measure, the people gaining them have increased almost every year, and the % of those getting the top grade has largely doubled since they were introduced.

Right, I'm off to ride a stallion shirtless.

 

[SPG]

You think the Russian people would have had enough of mad crazy despots. But there country is far down the corruption road it is impossible to bring back in the normal western timescales of doing things i.e anything more than 6 years then forget it due to our political system.

You need to change it from within with some subtle prodding here and there and play the 50year long game.

Or build the wall again and let them suffer until it all kicks off again.

 

[maltrabob]

None of the above is a spy. Litvenko was and the UK would do the same.

You mean like using a wheelbarrow of radioactive material that could potentially kill dozens of innocent people in such a public place like a hotel? You must be absolutely kidding me! That kind of murder is well over the top to get rig of a traitor.

 

[SarGara]

Final interview with Boris Nemtsov, hours before dying:

http://www.newsweek.com/final-interview-boris-nemtsov-310392

For now, we’re drowning. Everyone. Due to the policy of Vladimir Putin, a country with unparalleled potential is sinking, an economy which accumulated untold currency reserves is collapsing.

The West, the U.S. and Europe are moving forward, and what is our government doing? It comes up with some desperate ideas, wants to regulate prices, subsidizes state-owned companies to let its people on the boards earn even more. And worst of all, this government wades into a costly, fratricidal war in Ukraine and into pointless confrontation with the West.

Putin programmed my countrymen to hate strangers. He persuaded them that we need to rebuild the former Soviet order, and that the position of Russia in the world depends entirely on how much the world is afraid of us. He managed to do all these things with Goebbels-style propaganda.

I knew he was an opposition figure but I didn't know his opinions thanks for sharing, some humbling stuff indeed.

1) Everyone with more than 1 brain cell in the head, in the west, understands that this guy is hopeless and will never be a President in the Russia... A.k.a he is worthless alive to the west. Dead, is another story.

2) This is the same guy who talked that if he is in power, he will remove Russia`s nuclear arsenal.

3) This guy been found to be financially supported by the West, rightly so, if he came to power, it would be amazing for us... Russia which abides by our rules and does not have nukes, dream come true.

Now wake up and realize what a joke of a person this is to a normal Russian on the street and weigh in his chances of ever even getting 1% votes in the election polls.

To Putin this guy is so much more worth Alive because it shows "democracy" and portrays opposition as a joke due to their policies.

Jesus Christ this guy was murdered 2 days ago and you are already mouthing off about him being a hopeless, worthless, joke of a human. Do you have no ****ing compassion that even a murder will not get in the way of your "Putin4life" mentality!? True colours being shown.

do you get paid to be a KGB mouthpiece?

Quite!

 

[scorza]

do you get paid to be a KGB mouthpiece?

I rather suspect that despite his locations, he does it out of a sense of patriotism.

 

[Demon]

One of the extreme views I heard was from Tory MP Goldsmith who was talking about strengthening democracy by his Recall Bill. Very extreme. One of the presenters I occasionally watch is Max Keiser who worked in the finance houses in America and talks about the scams they got up to, that screwed the ordinary punters pension etc. He also talks about the economic setup as a Ponzi scheme, a bit like Dolph. Are you saying Dolph is a Russian apologist .
I find it is more like pointing out the flaws in the UK or US system. Is that

Our system has MPs with an 1800's attitude to their job. Subversive to mention the things they get up to?? Well I guess you would have to include the Telegraph as being subversive.
Not to mention the Kremlin interference with any news story that is about Russia..

A lot of it is poor in my opinion but only in the sense that it is talking of things I have no interest in and turn over to another channel.

I don't think anyone is a Russian apologist, I don't think anyone criticising what needs to be criticised is any form of apologist, I'm not sure why you keep going down that path at all.

I am merely saying that the channel is funded by the Russian government and broadcasts almost wall to wall 'analysis' of the political and financial affairs that affect the UK, and when you watch a cross section of the content, some of it looks fairly normal stuff, and some is definitely allowing airtime to people that cannot find airtime anywhere else due to their quite negative and off the wall views.. Between that and some very controversial reporting of Russian news stories and the Ukraine crisis, it's exceedingly clear what the purpose of RT is (IMO).

I don't think it's massively sinister in it's approach, more that it's yet just another annoying swipe at the UK/Europe by Russia..

 

[RedDanDoc]

There's no tin foil hats to be worn here.

No but there are plenty of Shills. Every time you quote one they can respond and earn 25 kopecks.

 

[maltrabob]

Yep, they get paid for praising Putin and for advocating his pathetic war in Ukraine. One of those "troll factories" is in Saint Petersburg.

http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/at-the-origins-of-russian-propaganda

 

[RedDanDoc]

Yep, they get paid for praising Putin and for advocating his pathetic war in Ukraine. One of those "troll factories" is in Saint Petersburg.

http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/at-the-origins-of-russian-propaganda

There's loads of them on here. They're given free reign.

 

[jl10000]

Putin is doing it all wrong! He needs to create the illusion of choice.

Clinton or Bush?

Red or Blue?