Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think the proposed peaceful settlement, were Russia withdraws from everywhere they occupied except Crimea, which is demilitarized, is possibly the best outcome that can be hoped for. Although the Ukrainians may consider it an inviolable part of Ukraine, it has only been so since 1954 when it was unilaterally transferred, under Khrushchev. Ethnicly Ukranains are very much a minority there, the main population was over 60% Russian and Russian-speaking, even before any population transfers since being annexed in 2014.
Demographics_of_Crimea

You have to consider practicalities and be realistic. The reason the allies were able to put the senior Nazis and war criminals on trial and execute them for war crimes was becacuse the allies demanded unconditional surrender, and enforced it - Germany itself was invaded and occupied. Even Japan only had very senior leaders put on trial despite unconditional surrender. Are we going to rely on the Ukraine getting to Moscow, because I cant see any Russian regime accepting it otherwise? So Putin and his cronies being put on trial as a demand of the west is not going to happen. Weakened though, he may be put on trial by the Russians themselves, in time.

As for militarily... the Ukrainians may well be able to take back the Donbas, if Western support continues. If. But with the west entering recession and the possibility of a Republican administration in the USA in two years, it's a big 'if'. An opposed crossing of the Dnipro River looks to be a big challenge... and after that, advancing down into Crimea through that narrow choke point, onto the peninsula... long supply lines, with Russia having some dominance in the air and on the black sea... very formidable. And then holding it, frozen in, like the Korean war? Whereas a peace deal makes some kind of NATO membership for Ukraine at least possible.

A big part of why Russia took Crimea is because its their Black Sea fleet port. No way they would close Sevastopol.
 
By fiat of the supreme soviet 1954. Not ethnically or culturally.

Both ethnically and culturally, Crimea is Ukrainian. Russians didn't even live there (except as slaves) until Catherine the Great invaded and stole it in 1783.

Whether the population there support being Ukranian or Russian we cant know for sure...

I believe they support being Ukrainian, but it's a moot point because there is no legal mechanism for Crimea to declare itself independent of Ukraine.

but a seperatist administration was voted in in Crimea and declared independence before the Russian troops went in.

You know as well as I do that this was a farce entirely orchestrated by Russia. It has no legal legitimacy whatsoever. The referendum was illegal and unconstitutional, the result was rigged, the declaration likewise illegal, unconstitutional and illegitimate.

The Ukrainian constitution does not allow any region to declare independence from the rest of the nation. It would be like a bunch of Pakistanis declaring Yorkshire an independent Pakistani state, with the support of Shehbaz Sharif.
 
A big part of why Russia took Crimea is because its their Black Sea fleet port. No way they would close Sevastopol.

Sevastopol is administratively separate from the rest of Crimea and was even back when under nominal Ukrainian control. A city with 'special adminstrative status', like Moscow or St Petersburg, not part of Crimea oblast. Therefore needn't be de-militarized in any hypothetical settlement.
 
Still belive this?

A bit odd to keep asking me every 3-5 months seen as I am not an active participant in this thread at this point.

In short yes, the only thing that would change my view is if I get evidence of higher Russian command ordering to target residential buildings whilst having absolute clear intel that it has no military significance. The primary driver of my view is that targeting non-military with limited equipment/ammo does not help the Russian effort. There is no reason for them to do it.

In case you will ask me 6 months later, see the answer above, I believe I am repeating myself at this point. If you find some reports to show rockets are aimed at people for the sake of killing civilians then you can send it to me and I will have a look. Do keep in mind I have not been following the war closely for quite a while now (since I stopped actively participating in this thread).
 
By fiat of the supreme soviet 1954. Not ethnically or culturally.

Whether the population there support being Ukranian or Russian we cant know for sure... but a seperatist administration was voted in in Crimea and declared independence before the Russian troops went in.

So, it's been Ukrainian for nearly 70 years and then suddenly, just before Russian troops rolled in, armed separatist groups rose up out of nowhere and declared independence. That's funny, the same thing happened in the Donbass! What a coincidence. Good thing Russia was there to steady the ship.

Crimea is Ukrainian. IF, and that's a capitalised big if, part of the Crimean population does lean towards Moscow and the rest Kyiv then perhaps they can work out some devolved self-governance like in NI until a proper referendum can be held once there's stability and those forced away can return.

Also, I wouldn't put too much stock in ethnicity there or what language people speak. Most people in Ukraine speak Russian as their first language. Bit like most people in Ireland speak English as theirs. I don't think folk in Kharkiv or Kyiv want to be ruled by Moscow any more than a Dubliner by London. I'd suspect the same might apply to people in Crimea. Their main links to Russia comes from the Russians that holiday there and the naval base.
 
Last edited:
"Both ethnically and culturally, Crimea is Ukrainian. Russians didn't even live there (except as slaves) until Catherine the Great invaded and stole it in 1783".
And... according to the link I posted earlier... neither did the Ukranians. the population was Crimean Tartar. Many of whom were starved to death or deported by Stalin. Ethnic Russians have always outnumbered ethnic Ukrainins in the Crimea.
"I believe they support being Ukrainian, but it's a moot point because there is no legal mechanism for Crimea to declare itself independent of Ukraine."
Legal mechanisms can be created or amended quite quickly, especially as part of a peace deal, after a war. And... historically ethnic since 1773? So... you think the USA should withdraw east of the Appalacian mountains and cede the central USA to indiginous tribes? There was a peace deal signed with the UK to say that wouldn't happen, and we seem to have let that lapse.
You know as well as I do that this was a farce entirely orchestrated by Russia. It has no legal legitimacy whatsoever. The referendum was illegal and unconstitutional, the result was rigged, the declaration likewise illegal, unconstitutional and illegitimate.
Well.. large pro-seperatist demonstrations seem to suggest that it had some support. And... if we are going to go into all-out war for peoples self-determination and freedom, there are better candidates to fight for... how about North Korea. Men from my own home town fought and died to try to keep them free... no major activity in quite a while. How about we deal with that first, and save sevel million Koreans from effective slavery and occasional starvation?
The Ukrainian constitution does not allow any region to declare independence from the rest of the nation. It would be like a bunch of Pakistanis declaring Yorkshire an independent Pakistani state, with the support of Shehbaz Sharif.
Dont joke about it. I can see Sarajavo being a template for here in Bradford in a century or so.
 
Last edited:
I believe they support being Ukrainian, but it's a moot point because there is no legal mechanism for Crimea to declare The Ukrainian constitution does not allow any region to declare independence from the rest of the nation. It would be like a bunch of Pakistanis declaring Yorkshire an independent Pakistani state, with the support of Shehbaz Sharif.
Not long then, already claiming areas.
The UK has lost it’s identity, no longer traditional British.

We are becoming like France in a way.

I am a believer that when you are in another country you respect their way of life and should not impose change,
If you do not like it you can leave.

Unfortunately, the UK has bent backwards to accommodate others rather then it natives. Long term civil war again and loss of country.

This can be reflected how Russia has managed to annex so many countries.
Look at Ukrain, moving them out of the area into main Russia, then repopulate those areas with Russians.

The Russians clever use of annex and “not” integrating new populations.How they manage to stay in power by reducing the ethic population, reducing any possible uprising, almost like cattle control.

Similar to the what the Moors did to Spain for 800 years and to this day think Spain belongs to them, now and forever.

Going back to sleep.☹️
 
Last edited:
And... according to the link I posted earlier... neither did the Ukranians. the population was Crimean Tartar. Many of whom were starved to death or deported by Stalin. Ethnic Russians have always outnumbered ethnic Ukrainins in the Crimea.

It's still Ukrainian territory. Russia had no right to invade. You still haven't addressed that point.

Legal mechanisms can be created or amended quite quickly, especially as part of a peace deal, after a war.

Irrelevant. The fact remains that the 'declaration of independence' was illegal and illegitimate, remains illegal and illegitimate, and will never be legal or legitimate. You still haven't addressed that point.

And... historically ethnic since 1773? So... you think the USA should withdraw east of the Appalacian mountains and cede the central USA to indiginous tribes? There was a peace deal signed with the UK to say that wouldn't happen, and we seem to have let that lapse.

That's a completely different situation, with no relevance to Ukraine.

Well.. large pro-seperatist demonstrations seem to suggest that it had some support.

No. Putin illegally invaded Crimea with an army (2014, remember?) That's how this all started. It didn't start with Crimea begging to become part of Russia. It started with Russia invading Crimea.

After his invasion, Putin moved a bunch of extra Russians in to create a false appearance of local support, then years later he got some government puppets to hold a fake referendum, which was conducted at the gunpoint of Russian soldiers. Ukrainians protested and resisted every step of the way.

Imagine that Pakistan invades Yorkshire, cuts it off from the rest of the nation, moves in a bunch of extra Pakistanis, sets up a local puppet government, holds an illegal referendum at gunpoint, declares Yorkshire an independent Pakistani state, then uses it as a base to invade Durham, Cheshire, Derbyshire, and Westmorland, and tells the British government that any outstanding legal technicalities can be settled at the end of the war.

You are basically telling me you believe this scenario would be perfectly reasonable.

And... if we are going to go into all-out war for peoples self-determination and freedom, there are better candidates to fight for... how about North Korea.

North Korea already has self determination, and nobody's invaded her, so what's your point? Again, your argument is completely irrelevant to Ukraine. It's not even a vaguely similar situation.

Dont joke about it. I can see Sarajavo being a template for here in Bradford in a century or so.

And according to your view on Ukraine, you would fully support that, just as you would support Cornwall unilaterally declaring independence tomorrow, Scotland declaring independence next Monday, Northern Ireland declaring independence a week later, and Wales... well, **** Wales, because let's face it, nobody gives a **** what happens there anyway.
 
Last edited:
Are Russian people really that stupid that they believe all the crap this nutcase comes out with :eek:

I don't know if it's a matter of intelligence. It is simply what they want to believe. The Russians are still medieval in their mentality. As long as their feudal lord is ruling strongly and conquering other people on their behalf, they are happy.
 
Sevastopol is administratively separate from the rest of Crimea and was even back when under nominal Ukrainian control. A city with 'special adminstrative status', like Moscow or St Petersburg, not part of Crimea oblast. Therefore needn't be de-militarized in any hypothetical settlement.

Oh now you want Ukraine to honour agreements made with Russia after Russia invaded Ukraine? **** that agreement, they can move their ships and make a new port, its not like Russia doesn't have a Black Sea coastline. Ukraine will accept the port as part of the reparations Russia will pay Ukraine for the death, rape and destruction.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom