Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sankari said:
So there it is. Russia confirms yet again that her terms for peace involve the surrender of the four occupied Ukrainian territories. I challenge anyone to tell me with a straight face that these terms are reasonable and should be accepted not only by Ukraine, but by the international community as a whole.
Click to expand...

They may have to face some new realities of their own when the Leopards, Challengers, Bradleys etc all take to the field.
 
Sankari said:
So there it is. Russia confirms yet again that her terms for peace involve the surrender of the four occupied Ukrainian territories. I challenge anyone to tell me with a straight face that these terms are reasonable and should be accepted not only by Ukraine, but by the international community as a whole.
Click to expand...

So the same "offer" as when they took Crimea but with extra territories this time round. Sure I'll take that deal, but let me just finish buying this bridge I was offered with the money I'm getting from helping a Nigerian General's widow. :rolleyes:
 
Terminal_Boy said:
5:1 sounds rather pessimistic for the defenders given they have drones/ELINT watching every approach and artillery pre-registered on every square metre of those approaches.
Click to expand...

Don't forget they are what 70-80% surrounded and still have a 5:1 ratio that's impressive. Considering Russia are indiscriminate and bomb whatever they can it's a pretty good ratio.

Consider also that ratio will likely increase in the future as Ukrainians become veterans of battle and new recruits from Russia to plug the gaps are more inexperienced.
 
Last edited:
*Putin Speaks to Workers at Aviation Factory in Far Eastern Russian Region of Buryatia
*Putin: For Us in Russia, This Is a Battle for Our People Who Live in These Territories (In Eastern Ukraine)
*Putin: This Is a Battle for the Existence of the Russian State
*Putin: We Need to Consolidate Our Society
*Putin: Only When the Enemy Sees Our Society Is Consolidated Will There Be Success and Victory
*Asked About Worries Last Year That the Russian Economy Could Collapse, Putin Says: I Worried Too
*Putin: Economic Sovereignty of Russia Is a Major Result of Last Year
*Putin: Foundations of Russian Eco’ Stability Stronger Than Anyone Thought
*Putin: Russian Financial System Got Stronger
*Putin: We See Sales Rising on the Domestic Market
*Putin: Western Companies Who Left Russia Thought Everything Would Collapse but It Didn’t
*Putin: Our Opponents Want to Create Problems for Us in the Medium Term - That Risk Exists
*Putin: We Need to Develop Internal Competition
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-russia-is-fight-existence-state-2023-03-14/

*Polish PM Morawiecki: Poland Could Give Ukraine MiG Fighter Jets in Coming 4-6 Weeks
*Ukrainian President’s Office: President Zelenskiy and Top Military Command Agree to Continue to Defend Bakhmut
https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...ig-29-jets-next-4-6-weeks-says-pm-2023-03-14/
 
Last edited:
This is part of why it's turned into a meat grinder (in addition to the Russians sending in groups of lightly armed conscripts as "shock troops" in frontal assaults), Russian trenches seem to have basically no overhead cover:


Perhaps the US ought to supply these too, the concern is civilian casualties later but surely given the way Russia has behaved then the better way to minimise that is to more efficiently rid Ukraine of Russian troops especially given that these things would be used on Ukranian territory with Engineers following up to clear unexploded ordinance. They have a clear incentive to take care of that issue as it will be their own civilians at risk of falling victim to unexploded bomblets.
 
dowie said:
This is part of why it's turned into a meat grinder (in addition to the Russians sending in groups of lightly armed conscripts as "shock troops" in frontal assaults), Russian trenches seem to have basically no overhead cover:


Perhaps the US ought to supply these too, the concern is civilian casualties later but surely given the way Russia has behaved then the better way to minimise that is to more efficiently rid Ukraine of Russian troops especially given that these things would be used on Ukranian territory with Engineers following up to clear unexploded ordinance. They have a clear incentive to take care of that issue as it will be their own civilians at risk of falling victim to unexploded bomblets.
Click to expand...
I have mixed feelings on that if that is the case. On one hand those Russian MF's deserve everything they get and I couldn't careless how they die (bullet to the head, shelling, died from wounds, hyperthermia, cluster bombs, HIMARS, smoking near ammo stockpiles, drowning I really don't care at all) on the other hand those cluster bombs are notorious for leaving unexploded munitions and your using it on your own land and it means once Russia has been expelled and people move back someone down the line is undoubtedly going to get hurt or killed. I suppose at the end of the day you use whatever you have to use to get the job done but this is storing up problems for latter.
 
@Freddie1980 that issue addressed in the lower part of the post, Ukraine is clearly the unexploded ordinance if/when they push forwards. It's not really the same as say someone using them overseas and then leaving it all behind, they have a strong incentive to make sure it is cleared as it's their land.
 
Freddie1980 said:
I have mixed feelings on that if that is the case. On one hand those Russian MF's deserve everything they get and I couldn't careless how they die (bullet to the head, shelling, died from wounds, hyperthermia, cluster bombs, HIMARS, smoking near ammo stockpiles, drowning I really don't care at all) on the other hand those cluster bombs are notorious for leaving unexploded munitions and your using it on your own land and it means once Russia has been expelled and people move back someone down the line is undoubtedly going to get hurt or killed. I suppose at the end of the day you use whatever you have to use to get the job done but this is storing up problems for latter.
Click to expand...
It will take decades to clear the land. Thirty years from now some Ukranian kid will get their leg blown off unfotunately.
 
Freddie1980 said:
I have mixed feelings on that if that is the case. On one hand those Russian MF's deserve everything they get and I couldn't careless how they die (bullet to the head, shelling, died from wounds, hyperthermia, cluster bombs, HIMARS, smoking near ammo stockpiles, drowning I really don't care at all) on the other hand those cluster bombs are notorious for leaving unexploded munitions and your using it on your own land and it means once Russia has been expelled and people move back someone down the line is undoubtedly going to get hurt or killed. I suppose at the end of the day you use whatever you have to use to get the job done but this is storing up problems for latter.
Click to expand...

With the sheer number of mines being laid, I'm not sure cluster bombs are going to make that much difference in the big picture.
 
Uther said:
It will take decades to clear the land. Thirty years from now some Ukranian kid will get their leg blown off unfotunately.
Click to expand...

10 November 2020 the final mine was removed from the Falkland Islands (30,000 laid) - 25% of the total currently in Ukraine.
 
Last edited:
dowie said:
Perhaps the US ought to supply these too
Click to expand...
The problem is, as Doc Holiday would say "my hypocrisy only goes so far".

Gaddafi's use of cluster bombs against rebel held Misrata was one of the flashpoints for the western decision to go in and overthrow him. And Assad's use of Russian supplied cluster bombs against western backed rebels resulted in condemnation from pretty much every member of NATO the EU and everything inbetween.

While the USA (like Russia) has not joined the global banned the use of cluster bombs it is written into law that theirs cannot be exported for use by other countries and so they cannot send them to Ukraine. This is the reason Turkey was doing it under the table, because they knew it would cause international ire, the only reason Russia hasn't been officially condemned by the international community over using them in Ukraine is because Ukraine are too (though it seems they're running out hence receiving Turkish stockpiles). In fact Ukrainian forces were actually criticised by the west (not condemned, that's worse) back in 2016 for using cluster bombs against the Russian backed separatists in the East (who were using them too).

IMO Turkey giving Ukraine western cluster bombs was a mistake as their Soviet stockpiles running out was a problem but IMO letting Russia become the only one using them would have had more benefit politically.
 
ubersonic said:
The problem is, as Doc Holiday would say "my hypocrisy only goes so far".

Gaddafi's use of cluster bombs against rebel held Misrata was one of the flashpoints for the western decision to go in and overthrow him. And Assad's use of Russian supplied cluster bombs against western backed rebels resulted in condemnation from pretty much every member of NATO the EU and everything inbetween.

While the USA (like Russia) has not joined the global banned the use of cluster bombs it is written into law that theirs cannot be exported for use by other countries and so they cannot send them to Ukraine. This is the reason Turkey was doing it under the table, because they knew it would cause international ire, the only reason Russia hasn't been officially condemned by the international community over using them in Ukraine is because Ukraine are too (though it seems they're running out hence receiving Turkish stockpiles). In fact Ukrainian forces were actually criticised by the west (not condemned, that's worse) back in 2016 for using cluster bombs against the Russian backed separatists in the East (who were using them too).

IMO Turkey giving Ukraine western cluster bombs was a mistake as their Soviet stockpiles running out was a problem but IMO letting Russia become the only one using them would have had more benefit politically.
Click to expand...
perhaps i am guilty of double standards (though i try not to) but i DO think it is slightly different when it is your home being invaded vs when you are the ones doing the invading.

All Russia have to do to end the war right now is to stop invading, ukraine on the other hand have no choice other than to fight on with what ever they have (well that or submit to Russian occupation i suppose and accept all the war crimes against them)
 
ubersonic said:
IMO Turkey giving Ukraine western cluster bombs was a mistake as their Soviet stockpiles running out was a problem but IMO letting Russia become the only one using them would have had more benefit politically.
Click to expand...

And what does that supposed political benefit of not doing something (for which there hasn't AFAIK been any international outcry over in this case) actually buy Ukraine?

Sorry but this is just nonsense, if they're dramatically increasing the Russian casualties then that's a tangible benefit and unlike say Libya Ukraine is only using them on Russian positions, they're not being flung into cities or areas with civilians etc..
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom