Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[dowie]

IMO Turkey giving Ukraine western cluster bombs was a mistake as their Soviet stockpiles running out was a problem but IMO letting Russia become the only one using them would have had more benefit politically.

And what does that supposed political benefit of not doing something (for which there hasn't AFAIK been any international outcry over in this case) actually buy Ukraine?

Sorry but this is just nonsense, if they're dramatically increasing the Russian casualties then that's a tangible benefit and unlike say Libya Ukraine is only using them on Russian positions, they're not being flung into cities or areas with civilians etc..

 

[bingham67]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1635617548812324864

They tried and failed yet again how much Russian armour going to blow up here

 

[Roar87]

perhaps i am guilty of double standards (though i try not to) but i DO think it is slightly different when it is your home being invaded vs when you are the ones doing the invading.

All Russia have to do to end the war right now is to stop invading, ukraine on the other hand have no choice other than to fight on with what ever they have (well that or submit to Russian occupation i suppose and accept all the war crimes against them)

Russia doesn't see it like that though, they see it as them helping areas of largely Russian speaking people which were essentially fighting a civil war against the Ukrainian government. Yes, Russia is invading a part of Ukraine, but that part of Ukraine was in a conflict with the Ukrainian government, they were shelling each other and fighting, normally governments don't shell part of their own country. Further complicated by the fact that the Ukrainian government is backed by the EU (mostly benevolent towards Russia to be fair), and US (mostly hostile towards Russia).

 

[HungryHippos]

Russia doesn't see it like that though, they see it as them helping areas of largely Russian speaking people which were essentially fighting a civil war against the Ukrainian government. Yes, Russia is invading a part of Ukraine, but that part of Ukraine was in a conflict with the Ukrainian government, they were shelling each other and fighting, normally governments don't shell part of their own country. Further complicated by the fact that the Ukrainian government is backed by the EU (mostly benevolent towards Russia to be fair), and US (mostly hostile towards Russia).

The "rebels" were Russian backed separatists, i.e. they stoked the fire of putting resources and people there to stir up unrest.

If the Russian people love Russia so much they could just go and live there, rather than trying to splinter Ukraine and forge a wider conflict.

This is not a natural rebellion it's clearly what Russia wanted to achieve, gives them an excuse to go to war.

 

[alchal]

Russia doesn't see it like that though, they see it as them helping areas of largely Russian speaking people which were essentially fighting a civil war against the Ukrainian government. Yes, Russia is invading a part of Ukraine, but that part of Ukraine was in a conflict with the Ukrainian government, they were shelling each other and fighting, normally governments don't shell part of their own country. Further complicated by the fact that the Ukrainian government is backed by the EU (mostly benevolent towards Russia to be fair), and US (mostly hostile towards Russia).

Comedy gold.

 

[Roar87]

The "rebels" were Russian backed separatists, i.e. they stoked the fire of putting resources and people there to stir up unrest.

If the Russian people love Russia so much they could just go and live there, rather than trying to splinter Ukraine and forge a wider conflict.

This is not a natural rebellion it's clearly what Russia wanted to achieve, gives them an excuse to go to war.

Well, they were definitely Russian backed, and the Ukrainian government which kicked out the Democratically elected President of Ukraine was definitely backed by the EU and US.

The people living in Eastern Ukraine had always lived there and spoke Russian, why would they live in Russia though? That part of Ukraine was where they lived.

I think both sides interfered in Ukraine and due to that we are where we are. Russia is the most at fault for invading obviously, but Ukraine were 100% shelling Russian speaking folk living in Eastern Ukraine, prior to that they also banned Russian as an official minority language in 2012 in Ukraine despite the fact it was widely in use and always had been.

 

[Malevolence]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1635617548812324864

They tried and failed yet again how much Russian armour going to blow up here

It's hilarious. The Russians attack, the Ukrainians destroy nigh on everything and also lob a load of RAAM rounds over the heads of the Russians. What's left of the Russian forces runs away straight into the minefields. It's beautiful.

 

[StriderX]

Most of Ukraine speaks Russian... that isn't justification for anything.

Those 'rebels' were almost entirely Russian soldiers/FSB agents, there was no genuine movement big enough to seperate from the rest of Ukraine and only appears like that because years of conflict have forced anyone with Ukrainian sympathies out of the region altogether assuming they weren't outright killed.

 

[ci_newman]

Well, they were definitely Russian backed, and the Ukrainian government which kicked out the Democratically elected President of Ukraine was definitely backed by the EU and US.

The people living in Eastern Ukraine had always lived there and spoke Russian, why would they live in Russia though? That part of Ukraine was where they lived.

I think both sides interfered in Ukraine and due to that we are where we are. Russia is the most at fault for invading obviously, but Ukraine were 100% shelling Russian speaking folk living in Eastern Ukraine, prior to that they also banned Russian as an official minority language in 2012 in Ukraine despite the fact it was widely in use and always had been.

You really need to stop reading The Donald or wherever else it is you read that conspiracy nonsense. Viktor Yanukovych was ousted as President when he single-handedly revoked the nations constitution which directly lead to large scale national protests against him. He was later found by Ukrainian courts to have committed treason and had been directly receiving large bribes from the Russian Government.

Democratic elections were held in 2014 and the country voted in Petro Poroshenko

Further democratic elections were held in 2019 and Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for Zelensky (he received 75% of the national vote).

[Edit] You also commented that the Russian language was banned in 2012, however Viktor Yanukovych was President from 2010 - 2014. You need to get your messaging clear, was Yanukovych pro-Russian and got kicked out despite "shelling Russians in Eastern Ukraine"?

 

[ubersonic]

And what does that supposed political benefit of not doing something (for which there hasn't AFAIK been any international outcry over in this case) actually buy Ukraine?

Basically, one of the main reasons western governments are backing Ukraine so strongly, is that because Ukraine are being invaded by an aggressor state the public opinion here is very strongly in favour of helping Ukraine. As long as public opinion remains so it's unlikely that western support will wain or that western governments will attempt to broker a compromise, because western politicians see that it is greatly in their interest to be seen as supporting Ukraine, there is obvious political capital to be gained by it.

Perception is quite important in conflicts such as this, to use an important analogy, during WW2 the allies swept across western Europe to Berlin and were seen as liberators, they were the obvious "good guys" fighting the obvious "bad guys" (Nazis). The red army on the other hand did the same thing from the east and were seen as monsters due to raping/torturing/murdering the populace on their way, just because they were fighting the "bad guys" did not make them "good guys", this highlights the importance of perception in warfare.

The problem is, if it gets out widely that Ukraine are doing stuff like using banned cluster munitions smuggled out of Turkey then public opinion will take a hit, some people will start to ask themselves if Ukraine can really be as good/wholesome as they have been told if they are committing the same crimes we were told Gaddafi/Assad needed to be ousted for. If public opinion starts to wain then so will political willingness to help.

This is why it would have been far more beneficial for Ukraine if they had refused the supplies, because then the headlines about evil Russia committing war crimes via use of banned cluster munitions would have strengthened public opinion, and thus political clout, which would mean more/better equipment/munitions being sent to Ukraine. I.E Ukraine could have requested additional HIMARS units to compensate (cluster munitions are basically designed to make inaccurate artillery more effective, they're pointless if you have accurate artillery to do the job).

 

[Roar87]

You really need to stop reading The Donald or wherever else it is you read that conspiracy nonsense. Viktor Yanukovych was ousted as President when he single-handedly revoked the nations constitution which directly lead to large scale national protests against him. He was later found by Ukrainian courts to have committed treason and had been directly receiving large bribes from the Russian Government.

Democratic elections were held in 2014 and the country voted in Petro Poroshenko

Further democratic elections were held in 2019 and Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for Zelensky (he received 75% of the national vote).

[Edit] You also commented that the Russian language was banned in 2012, however Viktor Yanukovych was President from 2010 - 2014. You need to get your messaging clear, was Yanukovych pro-Russian and got kicked out despite "shelling Russians in Eastern Ukraine"?

Is it a conspiracy that the US and EU interfered in Ukraine? It's literally a fact. I don't read anything like "The Donald", I've simply looked at what caused the conflict in the first place while assuming from the outset that what I'm being told living in the West isn't the whole truth, just as Russians living in Russia aren't hearing the whole truth. This is basic common sense. Sorry I know I should be quoting CNN verbatim to get any credibility.

F*** the EU: Alleged audio of US diplomat Victoria Nuland swearing

Subscribe to ITN News: http://bit.ly/1bmWO8hAn embarassing phone conversation about Ukraine politics between two high profile US diplomats has surfaced onlin...

www.youtube.com

 

[dowie]

[...]

This is why it would have been far more beneficial for Ukraine if they had refused the supplies, because then the headlines about evil Russia committing war crimes via use of banned cluster munitions would have strengthened public opinion, and thus political clout, which would mean more/better equipment/munitions being sent to Ukraine. I.E Ukraine could have requested additional HIMARS units to compensate (cluster munitions are basically designed to make inaccurate artillery more effective, they're pointless if you have accurate artillery to do the job).

That seems like a huge reach... there is nothing to suggest that HIMARs are being withheld from Ukraine because they're using these munitions and you haven't provided anything either, just a vague commentary on perceptions in general and yet Ukraine *is* using these munitions and the west doesn't appear to have faltered in terms of support.

It's a very flimsy claim re: possible downsides I think and the benefits of using them seem pretty clear.

 

[ci_newman]

Is it a conspiracy that the US and EU interfered in Ukraine? It's literally a fact.

F*** the EU: Alleged audio of US diplomat Victoria Nuland swearing

Subscribe to ITN News: http://bit.ly/1bmWO8hAn embarassing phone conversation about Ukraine politics between two high profile US diplomats has surfaced onlin...

www.youtube.com

Would you care to actually dispute any of the facts I listed in my post? Maybe focus just on the part where their elected President was taking massive bribes from the Russia Government and overthrowing their constitution?

 

[Roar87]

Would you care to actually dispute any of the facts I listed in my post? Maybe focus just on the part where their elected President was taking massive bribes from the Russia Government and overthrowing their constitution?

Sure he was, I don't doubt it, he fled to Russia when he left. Do you think the US/EU wasn't interfering on the other side? Of course they were. It was one big cold proxy conflict that went hot.

Why is a US diplomat discussing which Politicians should be in charge in Ukraine? Care to answer that?

 

[ANDREW GREEN]

Well, they were definitely Russian backed, and the Ukrainian government which kicked out the Democratically elected President of Ukraine was definitely backed by the EU and US.

The people living in Eastern Ukraine had always lived there and spoke Russian, why would they live in Russia though? That part of Ukraine was where they lived.

I think both sides interfered in Ukraine and due to that we are where we are. Russia is the most at fault for invading obviously, but Ukraine were 100% shelling Russian speaking folk living in Eastern Ukraine, prior to that they also banned Russian as an official minority language in 2012 in Ukraine despite the fact it was widely in use and always had been.

Eastern Ukraine voted massively in favour of independence in their referendum. The myth that Eastern Ukraine wanted independence is just that. And Ukraine was fighting terrorists in Eastern Ukraine, not East Ukrainian civilians, which Russia itself have carried out on masse

 

[ubersonic]

Russia is the most at fault for invading obviously, but Ukraine were 100% shelling Russian speaking folk living in Eastern Ukraine, prior to that they also banned Russian as an official minority language in 2012 in Ukraine despite the fact it was widely in use and always had been.

Firstly, the reason that Russian is widely spoken in Ukraine and "always has been", is because the USSR banned the use of non Russian languages and ensured schools only taught Russian.

Secondly, you have your dates wrong, 2012 was the year that Yanukovych created a new law that allowed cities and regions to pass legislation that would give Russian (and Greek) the status of an official language (if 10 percent or more of the population of that region spoke it as a native tongue). You're thinking of 2014 when that law was repealed by the post Yanukovych/Maidan government.

Thirdly, it's a Russian myth, it never happened. The repealing of the law was proposed in the Ukrainian parliament in 2014 but vetoed, of course that didn't stop Russian backed/influenced separatists in the East going to war over it lol.

That seems like a huge reach... there is nothing to suggest that HIMARs are being withheld from Ukraine because they're using these munitions

I didn't say they were, I said that if they hadn't used them and instead asked for additional HIMARS (the alternative to using them) because Russia were using them, then there would have been more political desire to facilitate that due to there being public backing for it.

 

[Firestar_3x]

US drone crashes after encounter with Russian jet

The US says the two aircraft collided over the Black Sea, but Russia says there was no contact.

www.bbc.co.uk

U.S. MQ-9 Reaper forced into Black Sea by U.S. after a Russian Su-27 fighter jet collided with its propeller during a flight in international airspace over the Black Sea today,- per @US_EUCOM

U.S. European Command: several times before the collision, the Su-27s dumped fuel on and flew in front of the MQ-9 in a reckless, environmentally unsound and unprofessional manner. This incident demonstrates a lack of competence in addition to being unsafe and unprofessional

Going to be interesting if we get any footage from the drone.

 

[StriderX]

Decent justification for more aid I'd say.

 

[CapitalOne]

Bit clumsy

 

[Roar87]

I don't know what a US response to their drone being deliberately downed would be.