Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

HungryHippos · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:15

Roar87 said:
I stated in my post Russia did the same thing lol

But you keep talking as if US is somehow in control of what Ukraine is doing, it's not.

This fight would be over if Ukrainians weren't fighting tooth and nail for their right to self-determination.

There is no point calling on US to end this war, they aren't a co-belligerent of it. Call on Russia to do so instead it has more impact.

Roar87 · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:15

Jono8 said:
Russia have lost the cultural battle. They have mostly either joined or want to join NATO.

All this misguided invasion has done is emboldened and expanded NATO.

Russia know full well that no Western NATO country is going to invade them for territory etc. They know full well there is no military threat to them and their internationally recognised land.

All this is, is Russia flailing for significance, in a world that is quickly leaving them behind.

If you support NATO expansion when Russia clearly stated it will not accept that, and the US actively interfered in Ukraine to ensure that happened - so it wasn't just a spontaneous thing, then you accept the consequences of that expansion is the current proxy war we're fighting with Russia. My position is that the US should've kept away from Ukraine and likely we wouldn't be in this position, not that it's okay for Russia to invade.

Jono8 · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:17

Roar87 said:
If you support NATO expansion when Russia clearly stated it will not accept that, and the US actively interfered in Ukraine to ensure that happened - so it wasn't just a spontaneous thing, then you accept the consequences of that expansion is the current proxy war we're fighting with Russia. My position is that the US should've kept away from Ukraine and likely we wouldn't be in this position, not that it's okay for Russia to invade.

NATO can expand as much as they ***** well like.

HungryHippos · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:18

Roar87 said:
If you support NATO expansion when Russia clearly stated it will not accept that, and the US actively interfered in Ukraine to ensure that happened - so it wasn't just a spontaneous thing, then you accept the consequences of that expansion is the current proxy war we're fighting with Russia. My position is that the US should've kept away from Ukraine and likely we wouldn't be in this position, not that it's okay for Russia to invade.

What right do Russia have to demand that no countries can join NATO, which is open membership for anyone who meets the conditions for joining it?

They may not like it, but Russia borders NATO and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, Ukraine or no Ukraine. If anything they've forced more countries to want to join NATO after seeing how Russia conducts diplomacy by force.

Roar87 · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:19

Jono8 said:
NATO can expand as much as they ***** well like.

And that includes with the US interfering to ensure that happens? Alright. Good you've got a position down, but I'd rather those tens of thousands of people weren't dead fighting in Ukraine.

Owenb · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:19

Colonel_Klinck said:
He's not wrong, this is an absolute bargain in terms of money.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638140999716274177

It will also make US fossil fuel industry and US weapon manufactures a fortune. It has also made the EU far less competitive which will make the US much more attractive at least in the short term to medium term.
The war is great news for the US, terrible for the rest of the world.

Nate75 · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:21

Owenb said:
It will also make US fossil fuel industry and US weapon manufactures a fortune. It has also made the EU far less competitive which will make the US much more attractive at least in the short term to medium term.
The war is great news for the US, terrible for the rest of the world.

Yep reading some German firms are moving to the States already

Jono8 · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:22

Roar87 said:
And that includes with the US interfering to ensure that happens? Alright. Good you've got a position down, but I'd rather those tens of thousands of people weren't dead fighting in Ukraine.

Yes. I don't understand what your position is though.

Are you saying that it is equally OK for Russia to then invade a country that wants to join NATO, especially if the USA used their influence to get them to be an ally?

(Bear in mind that this is till accepting hypothetically your unproven assertion about dakr/morally incorrect influence/subterfuge etc).

i think you seem to think you are being objective by "both siding" this, but you are not. What Russia is doing is objectively worse in almost any metric.

redeye · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:23

Roar87 said:
If you support NATO expansion when Russia clearly stated it will not accept that, and the US actively interfered in Ukraine to ensure that happened - so it wasn't just a spontaneous thing, then you accept the consequences of that expansion is the current proxy war we're fighting with Russia. My position is that the US should've kept away from Ukraine and likely we wouldn't be in this position, not that it's okay for Russia to invade.

Do you know any Ukranian's ? I do. I admit not from the far East or South, but from Kiev, Lviv etc. I can tell you that a monumentally high % of people, especially those under 50 wanted him gone, and wanted to be part of the EU and wanted nothing to do with Russia. There are huge numbers of Western countries with software engineers in Ukraine, they've seen what Putin has done in Russia and wanted nothing to do with it. You know the history of Ukraine right, you know what the USSR did to it in the earlier part of the last century?

Maybe the CIA did get involved, we will never know. But we can say Yanukovych was done, there was no way either with outside help or not that he would have stayed as President. If you know Ukraine you know that was going to be the outcome. And as we have said, do you really think hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Ukranians are right now putting their life on the line for an independant Ukraine. They aren't doing this for the US, or the UK - they aren't stupid. They are doing it because they don't want to be Russia. That by itself tells you that it was genuine.

And regarding NATO, if Russia hadn't invaded Georgia, hadn't stolen Crimea, hadn't funded Wagner across half of Africa, hadn't bailed out Assad, just maybe countries wouldn't have been so worried about Putins intentions and not felt the need to join.

This is all on Putin.

Roar87 · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:23

HungryHippos said:
What right do Russia have to demand that no countries can join NATO, which is open membership for anyone who meets the conditions for joining it?

They may not like it, but Russia borders NATO and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, Ukraine or no Ukraine. If anything they've forced more countries to want to join NATO after seeing how Russia conducts diplomacy by force.

It isn't open for anyone though since Russia was denied the right to join, essentially it's a military alliance set up to oppose the USSR/Warsaw pact, which dissolved, and now counters Russia. Russia was invaded by a Western European army in WW2, not the other way round, it has very real defense concerns which we don't appreciate. They lost 20 million people in WW2, far more than anyone else. This is all a knock on effect of that.

Nate75 · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:26

Roar87 said:
It isn't open for anyone though since Russia was denied the right to join, essentially it's a military alliance set up to oppose the USSR/Warsaw pact, which dissolved, and now counters Russia. Russia was invaded by a Western European army in WW2, not the other way round, it has very real defense concerns which we don't appreciate. They lost 20 million people in WW2, far more than anyone else. This is all a knock on effect of that.

eh? You know Russia invaded Poland 16 days after the Nazi's did, basic history.

Harlequin · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:28

Roar87 said:
Lmao, we're going with the defence of "not a member of government", just working for the government and interfering in Ukraine, so it's okay? You guys are actually so far gone there's no point. You literally are being paid by CNN to post here, right?

I'm sure nothing else happened on the ground the CIA was definitely not involved with any of those protests

McCain was GOP, Obama (his President) is DEM. So, your stretch is incredible, that the opposition makes government policy (Senate and Congress were both DEM in 2014 at the time of Euromaidan)

HungryHippos · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:29

Roar87 said:
It isn't open for anyone though since Russia was denied the right to join, essentially it's a military alliance set up to oppose the USSR/Warsaw pact, which dissolved, and now counters Russia. Russia was invaded by a Western European army in WW2, not the other way round, it has very real defense concerns which we don't appreciate. They lost 20 million people in WW2, far more than anyone else. This is all a knock on effect of that.

How far back historically are we going to keep going here?

Why did the Soviets gain half of Europe after WW2? US and allies pretty much stayed as they were for borders, Soviets gained all of eastern Europe. Didn't we play a large part in WW2? didn't US play a large part as well?

In hindsight that peace deal caused the issues you see today, turning half of Europe into a cold war communist bloc. At some point we have to stop looking at the past and look at the here and now. If we go by your logic of historical ties then Crimea would go to the Ottomans, and we'd re-unify with the States as their overlord. Maybe we can grab the rest of Ireland whilst we're at it.

I doubt Russia would succeed in joining NATO with it's dictatorship anyway, they pretend to be democratic whilst it's votes at gunpoint.

Roar87 · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:30

Harlequin said:
McCain was GOP, Obama (his President) is DEM. So, your stretch is incredible, that the opposition makes government policy (Senate and Congress were both DEM in 2014 at the time of Euromaidan)

I don't think the line between Democrats and Republicans, except probably Trump, with regards foreign policy is that different.

Roar87 · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:31

HungryHippos said:
How far back historically are we going to keep going here?

Why did the Soviets gain half of Europe after WW2? US and allies pretty much stayed as they were for borders, Soviets gained all of eastern Europe. Didn't we play a large part in WW2? didn't US play a large part as well?

In hindsight that peace deal caused the issues you see today, turning half of Europe into a cold war communist bloc. At some point we have to stop looking at the past and look at the here and now. If we go by your logic of historical ties then Crimea would go to the Ottomans, and we'd re-unify with the States as their overlord. Maybe we can grab the rest of Ireland whilst we're at it.

I doubt Russia would succeed in joining NATO with it's dictatorship anyway, they pretend to be democratic whilst it's votes at gunpoint.

I'm merely explaining Russia's defense concerns, not justifying it or saying they're correct. I obviously don't think NATO would ever plan to invade Russia.

Harlequin · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:34

Nate75 said:
eh? You know Russia invaded Poland 16 days after the Nazi's did, basic history.

On August 23, 1939, the USSR and Nazi Germany signed a non-aggression pact, known as the Pact Ribbentrop-Molotov after the German and Soviet foreign ministers. The pact delineated spheres of interest in eastern Europe. According to the protocol, Germany's sphere of interest encompassed western Poland and Lithuania, and the Soviet sphere included Finland, Latvia, Estonia, and Moldova. (After the war started in September 1939, Hitler exchanged Lithuania for a part of Poland.) Having been assured of Soviet neutrality, Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, beginning WW2.

Jono8 · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:34

Roar87 said:
I don't think the line between Democrats and Republicans, except probably Trump, with regards foreign policy is that different.

It is quite obvious that recently there is a faction in the GOP that massively cosy up to Russia.

Harlequin · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:35

Roar87 said:
I don't think the line between Democrats and Republicans, except probably Trump, with regards foreign policy is that different.

Thats your opinion; however you are wrong as Democrats had both houses and ofc McCain lost to Obama in 2008, and in the eyes of the people of the USA, DEM and REP and utterly different.

Hotwired · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:37

Roar87 said:
And that includes with the US interfering to ensure that happens? Alright. Good you've got a position down, but I'd rather those tens of thousands of people weren't dead fighting in Ukraine.

This might have been covered maybe 3000 pages ago but Russia is entirely, without any weasel excuses, responsible for all the deaths.

All the mumbling and implying of influence goes right out of the window when replaced with a full military invasion from Russia into Ukraine coated with lies about their reasoning.

HungryHippos · 21 Mar 2023 at 12:46

Roar87 said:
I'm merely explaining Russia's defense concerns, not justifying it or saying they're correct. I obviously don't think NATO would ever plan to invade Russia.

So we agree, NATO is unlikely to want to attack Russia, if nothing else Russia has nukes (as they are so fond of reminding us).

That means any countries in NATO are also not really going to pose an offensive threat.

Russia has a lot of territory and resources, but is stuck in the past with regards to how to use it, and instead of prospering their economy and people, they run a dictatorship that thrives on corruption and the few elite. Point being they don't really need more land, they have a lot of it, more than their fair share even after the collapse of the USSR.

Ignoring influence by either side, I think it's clear that Ukraine were more swayed by how the west operates vs Russia, they've probably seen for themselves first-hand how the two different systems work. After 2014 and Crimea being stolen from them, I don't blame them for wanting to move even further in the direction of the West.

Russia is simply lashing out because the only influence they have on eastern Europe is now with Belarus, and whatever nutjobs they can brain-wash or bribe into brigading the pro-Russian lies that try to make it look like they're the victim somehow.

Sum of all of this is that Russia is at fault and debating causality doesn't change anything on the situation on the ground.