Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[Devilman]

Yeah, but what's to debate about that? I'm saying what Russia's views are. Telling me Russia also did bad things doesn't change the fact that Russia see themselves as victims of Nazi aggression. They do think that, quite strongly.

If there is nothing to debate about it, why did you keep bringing it up?

Why did you keep mentioning it in this "debate" ?

Clearly you thought it was an important point to try and make when you posted it, so why are you now backpeddling rapidly and acting like it has no place in the discussion?

 

[Ayahuasca]

Thread has been derailed by one posters whataboutism. Don't get baited into it chaps.

Have to admit, it's some of the best mental gymnastics I've seen and by best I obviously mean most deranged.

 

[Roar87]

If there is nothing to debate about it, why did you keep bringing it up?

Why did you keep mentioning it in this "debate" ?

Clearly you thought it was an important point to try and make when you posted it, so why are you now backpeddling rapidly and acting like it has no place in the discussion?

It was merely to give a background as to why Russia might view it as necessary to defend itself from NATO, given they were previously invaded and lost a large chunk of their population.

 

[Devilman]

Have to admit, it's some of the best mental gymnastics I've seen and by best I obviously mean most deranged.

If only the Russian gymnasts could bend like that, they could win the Olympics without drugs...

 

[Mr Badger]

eh? You know Russia invaded Poland 16 days after the Nazi's did, basic history.

Also rolled into Czechoslovakia in 1968.

 

[potatolord]

Why are you banging on about WW2? Nothing you post changes the fact that Russia was invaded and lost 20 million people, of course they view themselves as victims of Nazi aggression, irrespective of what we think or what happened prior to that.

Russia, Belarus and Ukraine suffered horribly during the German invasion and occupation. That's true.

What is also true is that the uk and us provided materiel assistance to the USSR to fight back against the invaders, and that was the right thing to do, regardless of previous policy in the invaded state (USSR).

There's your parallel.

 

[Roar87]

Russia, Belarus and Ukraine suffered horribly during the German invasion and occupation. That's true.

What is also true is that the uk and us provided materiel assistance to the USSR to fight back against the invaders, and that was the right thing to do, regardless of previous policy in the invaded state (USSR).

There's your parallel.

I agree completely, but Russia still remembers that it was invaded by a European army and lost 20 million people, so go tell them that.

 

[Devilman]

Russia, Belarus and Ukraine suffered horribly during the German invasion and occupation. That's true.

What is also true is that the uk and us provided materiel assistance to the USSR to fight back against the invaders, and that was the right thing to do, regardless of previous policy in the invaded state (USSR).

There's your parallel.

Alsow, while at risk of going slightly more off-topic, it's worth considering that a large portion of the "How" Russia came to lose over 20million people in the war probably have very similar parallels to why they continue to loose hundreds of men every day in Ukraine now.

Their "tactics" are laughable. It's a zerg rush. It's always been a zerg rush. It's how they fight. Try to overwhelm the enemy with numbers.

 

[potatolord]

I agree completely, but Russia still remembers that it was invaded by a European army and lost 20 million people, so go tell them that.

They weren't invaded by Ukraine.

They punished Germany by occupying them for decades and asset stripping the country.

 

[Devilman]

I agree completely, but Russia still remembers that it was invaded by a European army and lost 20 million people, so go tell them that.

And Ukraine is currently undergoing a genocide and forced relocation (abduction) of children en-masse.

Do You really think that what happened over 70 years ago is ANY justification for the crap Russia is pulling now against Ukraine?

 

[Murphy]

NATO minus the US still has a population of 600 million people, if those countries funded their militaries at an appropriate level they absolutely should have nothing to fear from Russia, a country with a quarter of the population.

Is that what you think dictates defence spending? Population.

 

[Roar87]

And Ukraine is currently undergoing a genocide and forced relocation (abduction) of children en-masse.

Do You really think that what happened over 70 years ago is ANY justification for the **** Russia is pulling now against Ukraine?

I'm explaining the Russian point of view, it's not me justifying it. I've said I don't like Russia and invading Ukraine is wrong, I hope Ukraine wins, I would also rather the fighting stopped. I also think if we didn't **** around in Ukraine it's likely we wouldn't be in this position. None of those are conflicting positions.

Is that what you think dictates defence spending? Population.

I think a collective population of 600 million people including a lot of rich 1st world countries should be able to have a defensive military without the need for the US to come rescue us, yes.

 

[Murphy]

I think a collective population of 600 million people including a lot of rich 1st world countries should be able to have a defensive military without the need for the US to come rescue us, yes.

So is that a yes or no?

 

[Freakbro]

I think a collective population of 600 million people including a lot of rich 1st world countries should be able to have a defensive military without the need for the US to come rescue us, yes.

Well, US military spending is over twice that of every other NATO country combined (the other 29), so no, without the US NATO would be a shadow of it's present self militarily.

Hell, the US spend 38% of the entire worlds military budget, with China 2nd at 14%

 

[Turn]

*Kremlin Adviser: Putin Could Visit China This Year - TASS

 

[Roar87]

So is that a yes or no?

Are you suggesting that the combined GDP or NATO minus the US isn't enough to substantionally outspend Russia? Of course population is relevant unless you're comparing countries with vastly different GDPs.

 

[Murphy]

Are you suggesting that the combined GDP or NATO minus the US isn't enough to substantionally outspend Russia? Of course population is relevant unless you're comparing countries with vastly different GDPs.

Blimey this is hard going, no. I'm asking if you think population is the thing that dictates defence spending.

 

[Roar87]

Blimey this is hard going, no. I'm asking if you think population is the thing that dictates defence spending.

Maybe you could just make your point instead of asking questions, obviously not

 

[Stretch]

I'm explaining the Russian point of view, it's not me justifying it. I've said I don't like Russia and invading Ukraine is wrong, I hope Ukraine wins, I would also rather the fighting stopped. I also think if we didn't **** around in Ukraine it's likely we wouldn't be in this position. None of those are conflicting positions.

The majority Ukrainians support the country transitioning to being part of the EU. And why wouldn’t they. It offers them prosperity and security. We didn’t **** around in Ukraine. We offered them support when it was clear their wishes weren’t going to be respected.

 

[steve45]

Are you suggesting that the combined GDP or NATO minus the US isn't enough to substantionally outspend Russia? Of course population is relevant unless you're comparing countries with vastly different GDPs.

The UK alone spends more than Russia, less as a % of GDP but more monetarily. However budget alone isnt the only factor. USA provides a lot of the driving force and framework for NATO. I feel that if US were to remove themselves, NATO would likely lose direction and focus and end up being nothing more than an organisation in name, it might be militarily still very powerful but it just wouldnt have the same clout or influence.