Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[Colonel_Klinck]

LOL NATO isn't involved, they're just using the bureaucracy to supply arms and easily communicate and coordinate, plus the President of NATO is meeting with the President of Ukraine. I'm just pushing Russian propaganda? You realise you're delusional at this point?

No Roar I realise you are stuck in a mind set that you can't let go. You want to sell this as a war between NATO and Russia, you've been trying to do this for months but it isn't, no matter how many times you say it is. We are simply supplying arms to Ukraine. If the most efficient way to do that is to use in part NATO bureaucracy then that is the best way to do it. That doesn't mean NATO is at war. Russia is lucky NATO isn't involved or this would have been over within a week and everyone would be back home for tea and medals ages ago.

 

[nsmalley]

News organisation can report unverified stories as long as they clearly state its unverified. The problem comes when they don't mention that and report something as though it is fact. Refusing to report on something just because we might not like it is where you end up with an echo chamber and the public losing confidence in news media.

True. While it's not the news media fault per se it alters the casual readers perception of the truth. So while it's technically doing nothing wrong the publics perception is affected.

 

[Sythe79]

Article 4 has been enacted twice, in response to Russian aggression, not as you seem to suggest some sinister US/UK whatever plot which justifies what Russia is doing. you can look up who invoked it, no doubt countries you'd be fine with sacrificing lest we upset your BFF Putin.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Oh for gods sake. They are using NATO bureaucracy as that makes sense, its how the nations that are supplying arms can easily communicate what they have and what they can send and coordinate. It doesn't mean NATO as a whole is involved. You are just desperate to push this line, the same line as Russian propaganda.

I think this is an ever a case of its neither black nor white.

I mean I agree with you in that NATO are not active participants in the war. (Thats reserved for Russia and Ukraine), there is some truth in NATO being "involved"
However NATO and every individual country globally can choose to support one of other of the combatants to higher or lower degrees.
Realistically this is how global politics works, no one right minded stands by and watches war taking place.
As it is the majority of the western nations see who the aggressor is, who the party who needs help is since they are defending their soil and the majority happen to be NATO members, which means using the mechanisms of NATO where they can assist is very logical.
Plus of course NATO being specifically setup to reduce the chance of war in Europe and having historically been to defend against the Soviet/Russian threat if invasion they are uniquely qualified to assist.

In regards the Russian claims of heavy Ukrainian losses, I suspect its got a small element of truth. Ukrainians are dying daily on the front lines. They are almost certainly probing and testing.
The russ bots like the rest of us know that Ukraine are currently trying to implement a minimal news from the front approach and as such it gives Russia the ability to talk up their position with far less chance of any actual news from the front disproving it.
That will come later.

 

[Bluecube]

Wagner is capturing Russian Commander's now. I get the feeling that this is heading towards either a window accident and a massive anti-Wagner crackdown or open civil war.

It certainly feels like the beginning of a new Russian Civil War. No one is in charge, quite a few vested interests with their own private armies marching about the place, the UK, US and countless other countries on the sidelines poking away, Ukraine is the focus... It's practically 1917 all over again

 

[Roar87]

No Roar I realise you are stuck in a mind set that you can't let go. You want to sell this as a war between NATO and Russia, you've been trying to do this for months but it isn't, no matter how many times you say it is. We are simply supplying arms to Ukraine. If the most efficient way to do that is to use in part NATO bureaucracy then that is the best way to do it. That doesn't mean NATO is at war. Russia is lucky NATO isn't involved or this would have been over within a week and everyone would be back home for tea and medals ages ago.

You've changed what you initially said from "NATO isn't involved in this war" to saying I want to sell it as a war between NATO and Russia. Try and be honest in your posts or it's pointless typing out a reply.

 

[Uther]

I have bias. I can admit it. I try to stay unbiased, but it feels sore when I see what I consider my side taking loses. (But it is more that "evil is winning"). I still want to hear the news unbiased though, but could do without the Russian propaganda that is wayyyyyyyyyyyy worse than Ukraine's in terms of outright lies.

I have bias in so far as I believe Ukraine to be in the right in this conflict, so want them to win. I don't see it as some sort of game likea few people seem to though, the whole thing is a tragedy.
I note Grim5 didn't answer my question about being Ukranian or not. Not that I am accusing anyone but there is shilling on both sides all over the internet.

 

[bris]

LOL NATO isn't involved, they're just using the bureaucracy to supply arms and easily communicate and coordinate, plus the President of NATO is meeting with the President of Ukraine. I'm just pushing Russian propaganda? You realise you're delusional at this point?

It's fine to admit NATO is actively involved in supporting Ukraine, because it is.

NATO is an arms dealer, just like China is an arms dealer, Russia is an arms dealer too, but they don't fight in the conflicts where they sell the arms.

NATO has no troops fighting in this war, that's the lie Russia and all the Russian stooges like you want to think, you just don't want to believe your masters and their superpower status turns out to be a lie, Russia is just a third world country who cant even secure a small town called Bakhmut

All their special forces weren't so special, their Chechen allies who were supposedly feared are just rabid dogs who got put down, the Wagner mercs had to recruit 50k prisoners and still failed, now Prigozhin is blaming Putin for his failure and a power struggle is now on that will rip Russia apart

3 day war PMSL Russia really have embarrassed themselves on the world stage, and before this is all over they will be weak and vulnerable, civil war is coming to Russia, its not far away.

Putin will never be forgiven for the shame he has brought on Russia a quick death or a public hanging, place your bets.

 

[alec]

they will be weak and vulnerable, civil war is coming to Russia, its not far away.

Putin will never be forgiven for the shame he has brought on Russia a quick death or a public hanging, place your bets.

this story is getting old, think it has been played on repeat for over a year
just like the story of glorious Ukranian counteroffensive that will clear their land and recapture Crimea, it is not based in reality
the counteroffensive meme started in october i think?

and is targeted at poor dupes who are paying for the whole thing with high inflation and worsening economic outlook
meanwhile the rich get richer both sides of the frontline

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

this story is getting old, think it has been played on repeat for over a year
just like the story of glorious Ukranian counteroffensive that will clear their land and recapture Crimea, it is not based in reality
the counteroffensive meme started in october i think?

and is targeted at poor dupes who are paying for the whole thing with high inflation and worsening economic outlook
meanwhile the rich get richer both sides of the frontline

I hope your stocking up on copium.

No one serious has expected the Ukrainian counter offensive until around now.
It was either too cold, or too wet (mud season).
Only the dumb Russians who should have known better would attempt significant armour movement in Ukraine around mud season.
It basically limits you to roads and they become duck shoots as we saw last year.

 

[bjorkiii]

And the russki chaps get a semi on lol, laughable.

 

[Rroff]

Putin will never be forgiven for the shame he has brought on Russia a quick death or a public hanging, place your bets.

This is something which is unlikely to unfold any time soon and hangs in the balance - there is a population who kind of like Brexit are 50% complacent and 50% whipped up in a froth as to "Russia can't lose" but they are unlikely to turn on Putin for awhile yet and not at all if he slowly progresses through Ukraine. Anyone expecting an imminent civil war in Russia, etc. is likely to be disappointed.

If Putin is ever backed into a corner it is a very very dangerous situation and I suspect neither a quick death or public hanging - he is a vengeful person with a touch of megalomania/god complex:

"A person with a god complex may refuse to admit the possibility of their error or failure, even in the face of irrefutable evidence, intractable problems or difficult or impossible tasks." (Wikipedia).

EDIT: Kind of related to that I've seen some very good analysis along these lines by various people lately backed up with solid arguments and logic but applying very Western logic which doesn't apply 1:1 here.

 

[Roar87]

NATO is an arms dealer, just like China is an arms dealer, Russia is an arms dealer too, but they don't fight in the conflicts where they sell the arms.

NATO has no troops fighting in this war, that's the lie Russia and all the Russian stooges like you want to think, you just don't want to believe your masters and their superpower status turns out to be a lie, Russia is just a third world country who cant even secure a small town called Bakhmut

All their special forces weren't so special, their Chechen allies who were supposedly feared are just rabid dogs who got put down, the Wagner mercs had to recruit 50k prisoners and still failed, now Prigozhin is blaming Putin for his failure and a power struggle is now on that will rip Russia apart

3 day war PMSL Russia really have embarrassed themselves on the world stage, and before this is all over they will be weak and vulnerable, civil war is coming to Russia, its not far away.

Putin will never be forgiven for the shame he has brought on Russia a quick death or a public hanging, place your bets.

NATO is coordinating arms, supplies and intelligence. We have special forces on the ground, it's unclear and will be classified whether they've undertaken any combat. I'd be surprised if SAS didn't help out early on in the war given they were in country. This is literally what these guys train for and do, counter insurgency alongside foreign allies is their bread and butter. Essentially NATO is supporting it's Ukrainian ally with everything but boots on the ground.

 

[NickK]

NATO Secretary General statement ahead of Ukraine Defense Contact Group meeting, 21 APR 2023

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg remarks ahead of the meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group at Ramstein Air Base, Germany, 21 April 2023.The me...

youtu.be

This isn't just the action of independent states, NATO is very actively involved in the support as clearly stated by the head of NATO who has met Zelensky and has regular contact and meetings with him lol

Lol?

Sounds like what NATO is designed todo - protect against internal and external threats.

I tought trolling was illegal?

 

[Orangeade]

I have not really bothered getting much into this conversation as I've just been accused of being a Russian troll.

Im just stating that the amount of support we have given at some point will be seen as being involved. Especially with the latest events across the border which the domestic audience is lapping up. If a clear links gets established by someone going rogue and overstepping mark in Ukraine or elsewhere its going to escalate things majorly.

And to reiterate my stance, I really don't care about both sides. They are both corrupt and ******. I recognise the aggression by one side and I lament the pointless loss of life. My primary and selfish instinct is that I don't want it to spill over into my life. Unless Putin is assassinated and a rapid deconflict process takes place, I'm still not convinced we won't see the use of tactical nukes or worse. And I'd like the refugees from both sides to go home.

 

[Stumble Bum]

My primary and selfish instinct is that I don't want it to spill over into my life.

lol of course you'd be based in Switzerland, perfect place for you.

 

[Rroff]

I have not really bothered getting much into this conversation as I've just been accused of being a Russian troll.

Im just stating that the amount of support we have given at some point will be seen as being involved. Especially with the latest events across the border which the domestic audience is lapping up. If a clear links gets established by someone going rogue and overstepping mark in Ukraine or elsewhere its going to escalate things majorly.

And to reiterate my stance, I really don't care about both sides. They are both corrupt and ******. I recognise the aggression by one side and I lament the pointless loss of life. My primary and selfish instinct is that I don't want it to spill over into my life. Unless Putin is assassinated and a rapid deconflict process takes place, I'm still not convinced we won't see the use of tactical nukes or worse. And I'd like the refugees from both sides to go home.

I think it naive to think we can do anything in support of this war without consequence, but I don't think we should be bowed by consequence either.

Additionally we need to be observant and protect what makes this country able to stand up to the likes of Russia - maintain a robust defence capability, the ability to rapidly logistic and back it up and our nuclear deterrent. It is almost certainly Russia will be motivated to try and erode it, include by methods outside of the "rules" as we understand them, and likely have tried in the past - which may include trying to infiltrate the political or social processes to try and rid the country of our nuclear deterrent, etc.

Nuclear even tactical is fairly unlikely, though not impossible, while doing so would put Putin's arse on the line but the potential for tactical escalation, especially if Russia is losing isn't out of the question. Again we shouldn't be cowed by it - bullies like Russia are only encouraged by getting their own way - if they see it works once they will play it again.

 

[Orangeade]

lol of course you'd be based in Switzerland, perfect place for you.

Because I'm not as subservient and warmongering like you British? Should I live in a terrace house and wave my little flag happy for a war for a chance to get away from my hellscape lol.

 

[Rroff]

Because I'm not as subservient and warmongering like you British? Should I live in a terrace house and wave my little flag happy for a war for a chance to get away from my hellscape lol.

Noble intentions pave the road to hell. You can only stay out of a conflict so long if someone wishes ill against you - appeasement has been shown throughout history to not work and cost more lives and freedoms in the long run.

 

[Orangeade]

I think it naive to think we can do anything in support of this war without consequence, but I don't think we should be bowed by consequence either.

Additionally we need to be observant and protect what makes this country able to stand up to the likes of Russia - maintain a robust defence capability, the ability to rapidly logistic and back it up and our nuclear deterrent. It is almost certainly Russia will be motivated to try and erode it, include by methods outside of the "rules" as we understand them, and likely have tried in the past - which may include trying to infiltrate the political or social processes to try and rid the country of our nuclear deterrent, etc.

Nuclear even tactical is fairly unlikely, though not impossible, while doing so would put Putin's arse on the line but the potential for tactical escalation, especially if Russia is losing isn't out of the question. Again we shouldn't be cowed by it - bullies like Russia are only encouraged by getting their own way - if they see it works once they will play it again.

Article 5 provides protection for NATO, it's a line that people will not cross as it will mean nuclear war. So I'm not sure why we would have to be cowed.

I certainly support nations building up defense and it makes sense for the UK to gave trident (especially since most people hate them )

So if you agree with me even partially that there will be consequences, what do you think they will be? And should people have a say in it? And what is the line in which retaliation even if ****** is going to be seen as inevitable?