Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[Roar87]

I was infact making a rhetorical point. The main issue leading to WW2 was the actions of the allies post WW1. Most Germans in the 1920's had no job, no food, they simply couldn't provide for their families. Of course they went out and voted for the man who said he could change that, and in fact did change that for a while. If that was the situation in the UK most of us would vote for him as well.

Perhaps making "all" people guilty and subject to harsh penalties might not be the answer if we use that point in history as a learning tool.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

The main issue leading to WW2 was the actions of the allies post WW1.

which YouTuber's opinion is this?

 

[Harlequin]

I was infact making a rhetorical point. The main issue leading to WW2 was the actions of the allies post WW1. Most Germans in the 1920's had no job, no food, they simply couldn't provide for their families. Of course they went out and voted for the man who said he could change that, and in fact did change that for a while. If that was the situation in the UK most of us would vote for him as well.

Perhaps making "all" people guilty and subject to harsh penalties might not be the answer if we use that point in history as a learning tool.

Not strictly true actually - please watch the video.

 

[Sythe79]

Collective punishment is illegal under the Geneva convention. Russians who are guilty of crimes are guilty, Russians who have committed no crimes are not guilty.

Collective punishment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

100% disagree. There were plenty of innocent German families who were caught up in WW2 and were themselves victims of Nazism and let down by their psychotic leader waging war.



Ridiculous.



Most people in Russia are victims of propaganda, just like most people in the West also seem to be. You may as well be telling me that most North Koreans are themselves to blame for how they're currently starving and living in abject poverty.

There you go again, excusing genocide safe in your cowardly little safe space. "oh, oh, but it's not our fault bigger boys made us do it" doesn't cut it on a nation scale.

 

[steve45]

This is the kind of attitude that justifies genocide, and incidentally war crimes like the rape and murder of civilians. It's incredible people lack such self awareness. Despite playing online games and dealing with the general public, I do sometimes forget how stupid most people are. Posts like this act as a reminder though.

All Russians?

As much as I'm Team Ukraine, I don't believe all Russians deserve to take responsibility for the actions of their government

A lot of the Russian population (like well into 90odd percent) are simply what you get when you bring people up within a system thats that bad.

We are all massively influenced by how we are brought up. At individual level (ie your parents) etc, but also from the macro environment of the country etc

You cannot blame the majority of the individual Russians. I don't doubt for one minute that most of us would think the same way as them if the positions were reversed.

Whilst majority of Russians are not directly responsible. As a nation they are not absolved of guilt. The apathy of the general population and support to some extent of Putins regime has enabled these actions.
Yes they have bigger issues at home to deal with and have little interest in to what is happening outside of their home/local area. However they all have blood on their hands to some degree.
This will not blow over quickly, Russians will be stigmatised for decades to come!

 

[EddScott]

No, dummies like you enable things like genocide, you give free passes and try your stupid both sides arguments and excuses while other people die. no Russian is innocent doesn't equate to they are all equally guilty, you simpleton. It means they share a collective responsibility to make things right.... or not to, and be judged when they don't.

No German was innocent in WW2, but they weren't all equally guilty, and we judge Germans today on how the society and culture has evolved and changed

No Britain was innocent for its imperial rampage around the world, but I bet you hope you are now judged on how it's changed, and for the better.

It's on Russia to change its culture.. or not, and be judged by the world on their actions.

I'm afraid I'm going have show my ignorance and ask you to explain how no one in a country involved in an act of aggression is innocent.

As a nation they are not absolved of guilt.

Ah, this partially explains it. However, I fundamentally don't believe you can blame an entire population on the actions of thier government. Even more so when that government is in a position of authoritarian control.

 

[Roar87]

Whilst majority of Russians are not directly responsible. As a nation they are not absolved of guilt. The apathy of the general population and support to some extent of Putins regime has enabled these actions.
Yes they have bigger issues at home to deal with and have little interest in to what is happening outside of their home/local area. However they all have blood on their hands to some degree.
This will not blow over quickly, Russians will be stigmatised for decades to come!

I suppose we all have blood on our hands for the Iraq war then also, irrespective of our personal opinions of the war, even if people attended anti-war protests.

 

[Dis86]

I'm afraid I'm going have show my ignorance and ask you to explain how no one in a country involved in an act of aggression is innocent.


Ah, this partially explains it. However, I fundamentally don't believe you can blame an entire population on the actions of thier government. Even more so when that government is in a position of authoritarian control.

Control is maintained through the actions or inactions of individuals.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Whilst majority of Russians are not directly responsible. As a nation they are not absolved of guilt. The apathy of the general population and support to some extent of Putins regime has enabled these actions.
Yes they have bigger issues at home to deal with and have little interest in to what is happening outside of their home/local area. However they all have blood on their hands to some degree.
This will not blow over quickly, Russians will be stigmatised for decades to come!

Agree, its very difficult to split the actions of individuals, the nation, the leaders etc
They of course overlap.

My personal view is that the majority unless in a fully functioning democracy have little ability to change the direction and conditions in which they are "ruled"

Any significant non compliance in Russia tends to not be particularly in line with a long life expectancy!

 

[Harlequin]

Russia has already commiteed collective punishment on the peoples of Ukraine - murder of the entire male population of a village, removal of the children and rape of the women. Erasing cultural identity.

Does this mean Ukraine can reply in kind? no - article 50. BUT, they are still at war and retribution will be happening at a local level.

 

[danielanthony]

The Russians were heroes in ww2 because they were on the allied side, now they are attacking a 'friendly' nation they are 'evil orcs'. History eh, always interesting.

My grandad had to leave Latvia to escape the Russians; they 'nationalised' his farm and property.

No apologies or compo for him. The Russians are no better than the Nazis, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

[Bluecube]

which YouTuber's opinion is this?

The Treaty of Versailles and the resultant retributive measures placed on Germany after WW1 have long been considered the foundations of fascism in Germany and the resultant WW2. It’s an accepted historical fact

 

[steve45]

I suppose we all have blood on our hands for the Iraq war then also, irrespective of our personal opinions of the war, even if people attended anti-war protests.

Yes

 

[Roar87]

which YouTuber's opinion is this?

The Treaty of Versailles is a Youtube opinion now? What do you think caused the rise of the Nazi party? If millions of people can't provide food for their family and a group of outside nations are imposing a "War guilt clause" on your country forcing war reparations, you'll likely feel resent towards them that may culminate in you electing a bloke like Adolf Hitler who created jobs. You can't simply punish millions of people and place them in harsh economic conditions, especially following the 1929 Great Depression. It doesn't work.

 

[Hades]

you are losing your plot
what ww2 sins? what revolution? back to socialism?
so its not Putin guilty anymore? its whole russia for the whole russian history? communist or otherwise?

Tell me you don't read about history without telling me you don't read about history

 

[Stretch]

The Treaty of Versailles is a Youtube opinion now? What do you think caused the rise of the Nazi party? If millions of people can't provide food for their family and a group of outside nations are imposing a "War guilt clause" on your country forcing war reparations, you'll likely feel resent towards them that may culminate in you electing a bloke like Adolf Hitler who created jobs. You can't simply punish millions of people and place them in harsh economic conditions, especially following the 1929 Great Depression. It doesn't work.

Equally just forgetting crimes doesn’t work either. The condition for Germany not repeating its post ww1 treatment after ww2 was it accepted unconditional surrender, occupation, division of its country and total reorganisation of its political system, reeducation of it citizens by foreign powers and its surviving leadership were tried and many were executed by international courts.

It was pretty much the same in Japan too.

 

[Hades]

I suppose we all have blood on our hands for the Iraq war then also, irrespective of our personal opinions of the war, even if people attended anti-war protests.

I have blood on my hands because I believed my government. I shouldn't have. I should have protested instead but I didn't. So I have to share a degree of blame for the trust I put in my government.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Equally just forgetting crimes doesn’t work either. The condition for Germany not repeating its post ww1 treatment after ww2 was it accepted unconditional surrender, occupation, division of it’s country and total reorganisation of its political system and reeducation of it citizens by foreign powers.

It was pretty much the same in Japan too.

Yep at least this was a lesson learned from history.

The French literally used to ride in to collect their monies from Germany.
People facing hardship wont enjoy having their noses rubbed in it. When someone comes along and promotes the future being rosy its no surprise Farage Hitler did so well...

 

[Deleted User 298457]

The Treaty of Versailles and the resultant retributive measures placed on Germany after WW1 have long been considered the foundations of fascism in Germany and the resultant WW2. It’s an accepted historical fact

The Treaty of Versailles is a Youtube opinion now? What do you think caused the rise of the Nazi party? If millions of people can't provide food for their family and a group of outside nations are imposing a "War guilt clause" on your country forcing war reparations, you'll likely feel resent towards them that may culminate in you electing a bloke like Adolf Hitler who created jobs. You can't simply punish millions of people and place them in harsh economic conditions, especially following the 1929 Great Depression. It doesn't work.

My question was which YouTuber is shaping your posts on here, not the fundamentals of the point itself. It is quite the spectrum of whataboutism.

Also, ignores that Russia doesn't need Europe at all - whereas Germany certainly do...

 

[Harlequin]

The Treaty of Versailles and the resultant retributive measures placed on Germany after WW1 have long been considered the foundations of fascism in Germany and the resultant WW2. It’s an accepted historical fact

Please watch the video i linked, as its way way more nuanced than that