Soldato
Yes, it's one of the things they are used for.
You can see how the Ukrainians need them. They have been having trouble with minefields and Russians-in-the-hole. Two things cluster bombs are good at.
Agreed. Something is going on.
Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar
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Yes, it's one of the things they are used for.
You can see how the Ukrainians need them. They have been having trouble with minefields and Russians-in-the-hole. Two things cluster bombs are good at.
Agreed. Something is going on.
Man of Honour
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Meant to be great for minefields, trenches etc. It would suggest that Ukraine are struggling with the Russian defences, which isn’t surprising. Hopefully these help.
Why the US has finally decided to send cluster weapons to Ukraine
Despite having concerns about their kill rate, Washington is expected to arm Kyiv with thousands of these deadly munitions
www.telegraph.co.uk
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Soldato
Just to clear up some confusion, I hadn't watched your video until I looked for it just now based on your post above (the M777 barrage, correct?) and wouldn't consider that video or your comment negative in anyway. My "moist" comments are based on posts far before that based on the reaction people have in here whenever any new weapon is introduced into Ukraine's military (so many eye-heart emojis). If there's been some confusion as to who I'm am posting about, just to be very clear, it definitely wasn't about your video so I'm sorry if you thought that was the case.
I really don't try to
I find on the web that it's a futile gesture to even attempt to "convince" anyone of anything, even if they think the same way as me, so all I try to do is give my honest opinion on things as I see them, unless its something factually wrong which needs correcting and where I can point people towards evidence but even then the old addage of "you can lead a horse to water........" still rings true.
Well you confuse me even more now.
So you were dragging up the past, and yet had no issue with a new thoroughly debateable weapon going to Ukraine.
And yes I really do dislike cluster munitions.
Interesting thing is I knew (hes now dead) one of the original developers of the british cluster munitions from Thales. (Skiing friend).
He held very much the same thoughts, we are making something really quite nasty here were his comments.
If your getting offended by emojis I don't think your doing it right. No offence.
I would go back to again, if you have pertinent and real world experience then bring it. I am sure I am not the only one who would really appreciate that.
Your moralising posts seem to get peoples back ups. Mine included even if your not targeting me.
Associate
Hypocrisy, thy name is America.
What are cluster bombs and why is US sending them to Ukraine?
Cluster bombs are banned by more than 100 countries - so the move will likely draw intense criticism.
www.bbc.com
Quite interesting that even the BBC which is as pro Ukrainian as you can get still clearly recognises the erosion of decency. This has to be one of the lowest moves in the war so far. The use of cluster munitions is awful and will blight the country for years to come. Just because the Ukrainian and Russian forces have used already in the conflict doesn't mean it should be adopted.
Now in the future we are likely to see the use of such munitions openly in worldwide conflicts with far less oversight and it will be mocked when we protest. The Russians will probably use in their dirty deals in Africa with impunity. This move has killed countless people in the future.
And yes I'm passionate about this topic beyond the scope of this conflict. These are evil weapons with their effects on civilian population well known.
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Hypocrisy, thy name is America.
What are cluster bombs and why is US sending them to Ukraine?
Cluster bombs are banned by more than 100 countries - so the move will likely draw intense criticism.www.bbc.com
Quite interesting that even the BBC which is as pro Ukrainian as you can get still clearly recognises the erasion of decency. This has to be one of the lowest moves in the war so far. The use of cluster munitions is awful and will blight the country for years to come. Just because the Ukrainian and Russian forces have used already in the conflict doesn't mean it should be adopted.
Now in the future we are likely to see the use of such munitions openly in worldwide conflicts with far less oversight and it will be mocked when we protest. The Russians will probably use in their dirty deals in Africa with impunity. This move has killed countless people in the future.
And yes I'm passionate about this topic beyond the scope of this conflict. These are evil weapons with their effects on civilian population well known.
Not really, if one side is using them then it's fair game imo.
Associate
If it leads to the Russians leaving Ukraine, then bring it on.
Soldato
If Russia is using Cluster munitions then it's only fair that Ukraine also gets to use them.
After all you are hardly going to persuade Russia to stop using them.
After all you are hardly going to persuade Russia to stop using them.
Soldato
Hypocrisy, thy name is America.
What are cluster bombs and why is US sending them to Ukraine?
Cluster bombs are banned by more than 100 countries - so the move will likely draw intense criticism.www.bbc.com
Quite interesting that even the BBC which is as pro Ukrainian as you can get still clearly recognises the erosion of decency. This has to be one of the lowest moves in the war so far. The use of cluster munitions is awful and will blight the country for years to come. Just because the Ukrainian and Russian forces have used already in the conflict doesn't mean it should be adopted.
Now in the future we are likely to see the use of such munitions openly in worldwide conflicts with far less oversight and it will be mocked when we protest. The Russians will probably use in their dirty deals in Africa with impunity. This move has killed countless people in the future.
And yes I'm passionate about this topic beyond the scope of this conflict. These are evil weapons with their effects on civilian population well known.
As ever you spectacularly fail to understand, and get the nuance.
The setting is important.
Russia were caught using cluster munitions on civilian areas, quite early on.
Hence why they said "potential"
Soldato
They are doing fine.
Offensive operations went on until November last year. No reason to assume they will not this year.
Why is everyone expecting a Zerg rush? There may well be breakouts and you may see some thunder runs.
Ukraine values its people highly and is doing everything they can to keep them safe whilst undertaking difficult operations.
Soldato
I don't see any problem with any type of ammunition.
All weapons are designed to poke holes in bodies. It's all they do. How quickly, and how much pain you die in, depends on fate. It's all horrific. Cluster weapons are no different to throwing grenades, except they do it all at once. No different to an artillery round packed will ball bearings. We live in a world that spends billions maximising kill rates. The only one thing that sets a cluster weapon apart is that the bomblets are small and have a failure rate of a few percent, which means they are very dangerous to the indigenous population. This one reason is why they were banned. But this is a case where the indigenous population is actually asking for them to be used. So, really, no problem.
It is not doing well as they would like. They are having trouble with Russian minefields and trenches. Both of these are ideal targets for cluster munitions.
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Soldato
Public over-reaction. All weapons are hideous. Cluster weapons are no more hideous than any other way to poke holes in your body.
Soldato
Zelensky visits snake island.
Whoever works out and agrees his visits and speeches with him is a genius.
I mean compare to Putin, if you were forced into a war which one would be motivating you to fight.
Whoever works out and agrees his visits and speeches with him is a genius.
I mean compare to Putin, if you were forced into a war which one would be motivating you to fight.
There's two things I can think of:
a) submunitions recycled for drone weapons
b) stand-off mine clearing thus speeding up the advance
I think with the age of drones, trenches are easier to target precisely.
Also I think the activity of military cargo planes could be shipping the wagnerites away from the serving divisions perhaps to stand trial/execution.. plenty of options. However the coup did seem to ruffle the feathers.
The Ukrainians are fighting for their very existence, I am sure they will use any and all tools available to accomplish that. Must nice, all safe and cozy on that ivory tower of yours and you have the nerve to talk about hypocrisy, oh my...Hypocrisy, thy name is America.
What are cluster bombs and why is US sending them to Ukraine?
Cluster bombs are banned by more than 100 countries - so the move will likely draw intense criticism.www.bbc.com
Quite interesting that even the BBC which is as pro Ukrainian as you can get still clearly recognises the erosion of decency. This has to be one of the lowest moves in the war so far. The use of cluster munitions is awful and will blight the country for years to come. Just because the Ukrainian and Russian forces have used already in the conflict doesn't mean it should be adopted.
Now in the future we are likely to see the use of such munitions openly in worldwide conflicts with far less oversight and it will be mocked when we protest. The Russians will probably use in their dirty deals in Africa with impunity. This move has killed countless people in the future.
And yes I'm passionate about this topic beyond the scope of this conflict. These are evil weapons with their effects on civilian population well known.
The main issue with cluster munitions is the failure rate of the sub-munitions to detonate and then sit there like anti-personnel mines, for years to come, injuring people.. no different to mines.
Basically Russia is using if we can't have it, you can't, by simply mining using rocket launched mines it slows advance but then keeps the area hostile for years to come.. however it does mean, typically, that the Russians don't want to take it back because the mines work the other way when russia attempt to retake it - hence the reason I think they've given up holding it and retaking it..
The slow advance sucks military forces away from the other parts of the border.
Under that logic, why are people getting bent out of shape about Russians potentially using tactical battlefield nukes then?
We as a country are one of the many that have banned the use of cluster munitions. It doesn't feel right to overtly support their use when it becomes militarily expedient.
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Soldato
Well you said it, they are not deemed "finished" one the bang has gone off.
That combined with them being lower precision is why I would prefer more higher tech to go.
It seems that from what I can see the authorisation for cluster was that the US needs to up production of precision guidance more.
If everyone deems them acceptable then far lower precision and effective (in regards detonation) weapons will be produced by poor manufacturers.
Thats why precision is better. It doesn't only hit your target (with more effect) but it also is done at that point.
There will be a risk that some of those bomblets will not have gone off and when Ukraine advances their own troops get caught up.
Whilst napalm was even worse on the accuracy and potential for catching others up in the release, at least once it was complete it was done 100%.
Anyway I have always said give Ukraine what they want. I have no issue.
I guess I am maybe more sensitive to cluster due to what I wrote above, the reaction of someone who actually worked on them who I knew.
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If you bothered to read the pentagon statement you'd know that US production of HE 155mm rounds can't keep up with Ukraine's usage rate and to prevent US stockpiles running too low, they are switching to sending DPICM rounds while extra production of HE is being constructed - once HE production has increased, supplies to Ukraine of DPICM cluster rounds will cease
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