Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[ltron]

Average Twitter posters whos suddenly an expert on military weapons: It's ok when Russia uses cluster munitions but not ok for Ukraine.

These Russian trolls must try harder (actually that's probably a bad idea, unfortunately my dad is already vulnerable to them).

 

[SpellowHouse]

Average Twitter posters whos suddenly an expert on military weapons: It's ok when Russia uses cluster munitions but not ok for Ukraine.

These idiots drive me mad. They are completely wrong as to why they are banned in many countries. It's not at all because they are "horrific" and they kill indiscriminately. All weapons are horrific, and any bomb or missile has the opportunity to kill indiscriminately. The reason they are banned is that they have a high failure rate and leave small unexploded bombs lying about, which represent a danger to civilians when they return to the area, and the Ukrainians will use them on Ukrainian soil, accepting that risk. Not only that, but the Ukrainians intend to use them against Russian soldiers. What was different about the Russians using them is that they were not using them on Russian soil, and they were using them against the civilian population.

 

[SpellowHouse]

These Russian trolls must try harder (actually that's probably a bad idea, unfortunately my dad is already vulnerable to them).

This is where Musk and his "freedom of speech" becomes unstuck. It's a sad fact, but there are very intelligent people manipulating the minds of the weak. There have to be some controls, some limits to freedom of speech, especially in times of war. Look at the way the Russian trolls influenced Jeremy Corbyn during the Salisbury incident. All you need is ONE weak-minded idiot in power to believe some of the misinformation and you have big trouble on your hands.

 

[ltron]

This is where Musk and his "freedom of speech" becomes unstuck.

Not to mention he is a hypocrite on this anyway and has censored Twitter based on right wing populist government requests.

 

[HungryHippos]

I don't know if I saw it posted here or elsewhere, but this video shows how many Kremlin bots will post the same wording about something, despite the fact that Russia has been using Cluster bombs in civilian areas.

They want people to question the decision whilst simultaneously down-playing their own use of the same weapons. The more outrage they can cause the better.

Russia’s Cluster Bomb / DPICM Disinformation Script

If you do an "OR" search for "Cluster" + "Horrific" you will see that many Russian sophists are posting negatively about sending DPICM to Ukraine are writing...

www.youtube.com

 

[gjbf1]

Anyone seen the Guardian article about the small mercenary group of Russians based in the Ukraine and now running raids in Russia? Worth a read. I doubt they'll achieve a huge amount but the insight into some Russian's minds and that fact more Russians are taking up arms after Wagner does uphold the thinking that Putin is slowly losing grip and support.

 

[StriderX]

I don't know if I saw it posted here or elsewhere, but this video shows how many Kremlin bots will post the same wording about something, despite the fact that Russia has been using Cluster bombs in civilian areas.

They want people to question the decision whilst simultaneously down-playing their own use of the same weapons. The more outrage they can cause the better.

Russia’s Cluster Bomb / DPICM Disinformation Script

If you do an "OR" search for "Cluster" + "Horrific" you will see that many Russian sophists are posting negatively about sending DPICM to Ukraine are writing...

www.youtube.com

Which is of course good for certain outrage-based social media as that drives engagement... definitely 'peaceful' use only.

 

[ubersonic]

Every single person commenting on this thread is doing so from the safety of anothe country not under direct invasion from Russia.

That's not entirely true, I would wager a number of pro-Russian posters who have commented in this thread over the past decade are now fertilising Ukrainian fields.

 

[MikeTimbers]

This is where Musk and his "freedom of speech" becomes unstuck. It's a sad fact, but there are very intelligent people manipulating the minds of the weak. There have to be some controls, some limits to freedom of speech, especially in times of war. Look at the way the Russian trolls influenced Jeremy Corbyn during the Salisbury incident. All you need is ONE weak-minded idiot in power to believe some of the misinformation and you have big trouble on your hands.

All you need is millions of weak-minded idiots and you have a serious political issue - q.v. America. In general the WWW has been an enormous benefit to humanity but specifically Twitter has been an unmitigated disaster.

 

[Roar87]

This is where Musk and his "freedom of speech" becomes unstuck. It's a sad fact, but there are very intelligent people manipulating the minds of the weak. There have to be some controls, some limits to freedom of speech, especially in times of war. Look at the way the Russian trolls influenced Jeremy Corbyn during the Salisbury incident. All you need is ONE weak-minded idiot in power to believe some of the misinformation and you have big trouble on your hands.

The concept of free speech is that you allow someone you don't like to say something you don't agree with, so it doesn't become unstuck here, it is actually being demonstrated here. The counter to untrue speech is simply by replying to the user and correcting what they say if you don't agree with it.

 

[gjbf1]

All you need is millions of weak-minded idiots and you have a serious political issue - q.v. America. In general the WWW has been an enormous benefit to humanity but specifically Twitter has been an unmitigated disaster.

I'd argue social media in general. FB, Instagram, SC, even YouTube to some degree. However the fact all tools are used and abused in similar ways says more about the human condition than the technology.

 

[SpellowHouse]

The concept of free speech is that you allow someone you don't like to say something you don't agree with, so it doesn't become unstuck here, it is actually being demonstrated here. The counter to untrue speech is simply by replying to the user and correcting what they say if you don't agree with it.

I know how it is supposed to work, but that's not how it does work. We all know how to live life, but laws are to stop us misbehaving. Same with information. There need to be rules to stop people misbehaving, because not everyone can or does fact check.

I'd argue social media in general. FB, Instagram, SC, even YouTube to some degree. However the fact all tools are used and abused in similar ways says more about the human condition than the technology.

I forget who it was who was talking about soapboxes ... basically said that if you have no rules, then the park will just descend in to a giant brawl in minutes, and it's true. The problem is that (typically) the politicians didn't do their job, didn't foresee the problems, and didn't work out what to do....and still don't seem to have much of a clue.

 

[gjbf1]

I know how it is supposed to work, but that's not how it does work. We all know how to live life, but laws are to stop us misbehaving. Same with information. There need to be rules to stop people misbehaving, because not everyone can or does fact check.



I forget who it was who was talking about soapboxes ... basically said that if you have no rules, then the park will just descend in to a giant brawl in minutes, and it's true. The problem is that (typically) the politicians didn't do their job, didn't foresee the problems, and didn't work out what to do....and still don't seem to have much of a clue.

Yep. And now we'll have social media, fake news, and election rigged backed by even more powerful AI which is exactly where social media used to be - badly understood and completely unregulated with governments watching on inept.

 

[Twinz]

I know how it is supposed to work, but that's not how it does work. We all know how to live life, but laws are to stop us misbehaving. Same with information. There need to be rules to stop people misbehaving, because not everyone can or does fact check.

The problem is that the cure has historically ended up being worse than the disease.

Centralized control of what is and isn’t "misinformation" simply puts too much power in too few hands.

 

[Roar87]

I know how it is supposed to work, but that's not how it does work. We all know how to live life, but laws are to stop us misbehaving. Same with information. There need to be rules to stop people misbehaving, because not everyone can or does fact check.

Yeah, then you need to put someone in charge of deciding who's misbehaving and because that person is a human being they will naturally make a mistake and decide someone is misbehaving when they're telling the truth, and now you're censoring the truth in a potentially damaging sense.

 

[Maple Leaf]

I asked if he had seen any evidence, the response was an article that specifically said there isn't any evidence of their use. Do you have anything to add other than something you just pulled from Wikipedia?

How can there be any evidence of their usage if the Russians deny using them? I doubt the average Ukrainian soldier has access to a Geiger counter and has the spare time to thoroughly go over every recently destroyed Ukrainian armoured vehicle in the war zone with it looking for DU dust. Whether a tank is destroyed with a conventional armour-piercing shell or a DU shell makes no difference anyway. Also, Challenger-2s actually have DU inside their armour so radiation can be released even if they are penetrated with a conventional AP shell rather than a DU shell.

The whole narrative about escalation due to NATO members sending conventional weapons is just BS Russian propaganda anyway. We have not given Ukraine the sort of help they deserved. Our weapons/ammunition supplies have been slow and inadequate. Last September the commander of the Ukrainian forces asked for at least 300 third-generation western main battle tanks. He has received fewer than 100 so far. If they had received them all before the start of the summer counteroffensive it would have given them an edge over the Russians. Instead, a dozen different tanks are being sent here and there until they've all arrived some time next year. The US has promised 31 M1A2 Abrams tanks (but it's unclear when they will arrive - maybe next year), however, it currently has 2,000 M1A2s in storage!

The only reason they are sending cluster munitions to Ukraine is because they are running out of the standard shells they would otherwise supply. Why didn't they ramp up production of shells to wartime levels the moment Russia invaded Ukraine? It was obvious that we would have to help them and we might need more shells ourselves if the war escalated. The Kremlin must be happy that our response has been so shambolic. If we'd gone into it meaning to provide game-changing support from the start then the Russians would be getting their arses kicked now.

 

[Rroff]

I doubt the average Ukrainian soldier has access to a Geiger counter and has the spare time to thoroughly go over every recently destroyed Ukrainian armoured vehicle in the war zone with it looking for DU dust.

I'd imagine Ukraine does a fair bit of monitoring and surveying - some of the foreign legion fighters were being tasked with investigating anything which had been destroyed whether vehicles, property, etc. ( for example https://youtu.be/Cv7WR29zfTE?t=154 ) I don't know if still the case. I know at least one T-90 wreck and several T-80s were examined to see what equipment they had onboard, etc. I'd imagine Ukraine's military has a fair idea if DU munitions have been used or not - I've seen no reports so far of such.

 

[Maple Leaf]

I'd imagine Ukraine's military has a fair idea if DU munitions have been used or not - I've seen no reports so far of such.

The bottom line is that the Russian army has shown itself to be run by ruthless bigots who have zero respect for the health and safety of civilians in the conflict area. They clearly have no ethical objections to using DU shells because they have had DU shells designed and manufactured for T-72s, T-80BVs and T-90s in the last few years. If they have enough of them and they are having frequent tank-on-tank battles in Ukraine they would doubtless go ahead and use them. To suggest that kind-hearted Putin is holding back his nasty DU shells until the wicked Challenger-2s turn up with their DU shells is just ludicrous.

 

[Grim5]

I'd imagine Ukraine does a fair bit of monitoring and surveying - some of the foreign legion fighters were being tasked with investigating anything which had been destroyed whether vehicles, property, etc. ( for example https://youtu.be/Cv7WR29zfTE?t=154 ) I don't know if still the case. I know at least one T-90 wreck and several T-80s were examined to see what equipment they had onboard, etc. I'd imagine Ukraine's military has a fair idea if DU munitions have been used or not - I've seen no reports so far of such.

Isn't DU rounds what the Russian T-80BV fires? Unless Russia lied again. In any case many of these would have been used and lost in initial invasion and Russia only had a couple hundred of them to begin with

 

[ltron]

The problem is that the cure has historically ended up being worse than the disease.

Centralized control of what is and isn’t "misinformation" simply puts too much power in too few hands.

Indeed, but YouTube for example has an algorithm that likes to push exciting conspiracy theories as this drives engagement and they profit from it. They could at least make it more neutral and that sidesteps the above problem.