Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Freddie1980 said:
I found this quote from the Colonel of the Ukrainian 57th Bridge fighting around Bakhmut interesting and a bit of an eye opener and runs against the conventions of what we've told previously about what happens when you attack:

www.bbc.co.uk

Ukraine war: No fast results in offensive, warns Ukraine's General Syrskyi

Gen Syrskyi, overseeing the renewed push in the east, says quick success is practically impossible.
www.bbc.co.uk



I suppose it makes sense to not stand still and take shells to face given both sides rely heavily on artillery to breakthrough lines.
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"If we put in a bit of effort, Bakhmut could be encircled," Col Bakulin says. Contrary to conventional military wisdom, he also says his casualties in the offensive are fewer than when his unit was static, defending the city.

Moving forward, albeit slowly, he says has also boosted morale so "the losses are easier to bear".

For the first time on the eastern front, the numbers of Ukrainian forces now match those of Russian troops - about 160,000. However, Ukraine is still outgunned by Russian artillery.
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So people were crowing about 9:1 KD/R on the other side and now it's magically the other way around? I mean I get a bit of propaganda is needed but cmon...

Also interesting that he highlighted the morally bankrupt nature of cluster munitions. I'm sure the armchair generals here will say he's an idiot...(I'm pretty sure I read recently that the munitions were given on the condition they were not to be used in urban environments because of future collateral damage? Goalposts shifted again I guess..

Could the dynamics change with the arrival of US-supplied cluster munitions, which contain dozens of small bombs that can be sprayed out over a wider area? More than a hundred countries have banned them.

Col Bakulin says they're needed to "inflict maximum damage on enemy infantry". "The more infantry who die here, the more their relatives back in Russia will ask their government 'why?'"

But, he adds: "I can't say that cluster bombs will solve all our problems on the battlefield."

He also acknowledges they're a controversial weapon: "If the Russians didn't use them, perhaps conscience would not allow us to do it too."
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Excellent morality....we know they are wrong, but if the (clearly morally bankrupt by all their actions to date) Russians have used them, then hey ho it's fine.
 
It will be a hard fought freedom. Next year will be the concern as russia is likely to take a breather and replenish with arms from the BRACs community during the muddy period. The question is will putin manage to hold onto power for the next year without promising even more extravagant action. Especially if crimea’s russian hold is in doubt.

Seems to me that he’s pinned into corner, not allowed to use bio/chem/nuke weapons so the only other option is a sideways move - either attempting to capitalise on inciting problems in ukrainian ally countries or “accident” incidents occurring to push economic capability to end. I’m certain that he’s hoping special operation TrumpForPresident will then prevent the arms support.
 
NickK said:
It will be a hard fought freedom. Next year will be the concern as russia is likely to take a breather and replenish with arms from the BRACs community during the muddy period. The question is will putin manage to hold onto power for the next year without promising even more extravagant action. Especially if crimea’s russian hold is in doubt.

Seems to me that he’s pinned into corner, not allowed to use bio/chem/nuke weapons so the only other option is a sideways move - either attempting to capitalise on inciting problems in ukrainian ally countries or “accident” incidents occurring to push economic capability to end. I’m certain that he’s hoping special operation TrumpForPresident will then prevent the arms support.
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A desperate Putin is a dangerous one IMO, one possibility is an increase in sabotage, espionage and terror activities sponsored by the Russian regime. I'd also not rule out the use of nuclear or bio weapons - intimidation is all these kind of regimes really know, the equation there really is how much Putin's arse is on the line and if he is desperate enough all bets are off.
 
Orangeade said:
So people were crowing about 9:1 KD/R on the other side and now it's magically the other way around? I mean I get a bit of propaganda is needed but cmon...

Also interesting that he highlighted the morally bankrupt nature of cluster munitions. I'm sure the armchair generals here will say he's an idiot...(I'm pretty sure I read recently that the munitions were given on the condition they were not to be used in urban environments because of future collateral damage? Goalposts shifted again I guess..



Excellent morality....we know they are wrong, but if the (clearly morally bankrupt by all their actions to date) Russians have used them, then hey ho it's fine.
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Perun did an interesting video at the weekend which went into this.

Again we have to remember the US, Russia and Ukraine haven't banned cluster munitions and there were reports and I believe video of Russians using cluster muntions on residential areas throughout the conflict.

The statistics that were quoted in Perun's video from a US source over use of cluster muntions vs convential shells was quite interesting. Cluster muntions are highly effective and require less shells than conventional shells to effectively kill a target. This means that you can do more damage, with less shells being fired. Which leads to less artillery barrel wear, and reduction in the stress on Ukrainian logistics. It also quoted the US government saying they have 3 million cluster munitions sat in storage which obviously would help Ukraines need for munitions as production of 155mm hasn't really hit high levels yet.

Oh and an interesting point was. There are a huge amount of mines already littering Ukraines territory, gosh knows how many, which will all have to be cleared at some point in the future. If Ukraine want to use those kinds of munitions on their own soil then so be it. The job of clearing ordinance is going to be staggering no matter if they use cluster munitions or not.
 
Orangeade said:
So people were crowing about 9:1 KD/R on the other side and now it's magically the other way around? I mean I get a bit of propaganda is needed but cmon...

Also interesting that he highlighted the morally bankrupt nature of cluster munitions. I'm sure the armchair generals here will say he's an idiot...(I'm pretty sure I read recently that the munitions were given on the condition they were not to be used in urban environments because of future collateral damage? Goalposts shifted again I guess..



Excellent morality....we know they are wrong, but if the (clearly morally bankrupt by all their actions to date) Russians have used them, then hey ho it's fine.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure about 9/1 KD but you can make an inference that ratios on the numbers of dead for the Russians would be higher due to the way Russia uses it's infantry and when. Over the winter there were plenty of videos of Russian recon units being sent out into open fields with no protection or cover one carrying a clip of ammo and the other with a rifle with the idea being whoever died first the other one would have a complete set. Then there were the constant meat wave attacks around Bakhmut for 8 months straight and the disastrous attack in Vuhledar where they lost 130 vehicles.

We don't know where those cluster bombs will be used so I would reserve judgement, anti tank mine clearing and counter battery fire would seem like a obvious use for these types of weapons due to their area of effect properties. I can't see them using on urban environments, when it comes to attack Ukraine has preferred to go around large settlements and threaten encirclement which has been enough to get the Russian's to retreat. Once their on their roads and running away Ukraine can then blast them to kingdom come but using in urban areas would just slowdown any potential for an assault.
 
Jester* said:
Perun did an interesting video at the weekend which went into this.

Again we have to remember the US, Russia and Ukraine haven't banned cluster munitions and there were reports and I believe video of Russians using cluster muntions on residential areas throughout the conflict.

The statistics that were quoted in Perun's video from a US source over use of cluster muntions vs convential shells was quite interesting. Cluster muntions are highly effective and require less shells than conventional shells to effectively kill a target. This means that you can do more damage, with less shells being fired. Which leads to less artillery barrel wear, and reduction in the stress on Ukrainian logistics. It also quoted the US government saying they have 3 million cluster munitions sat in storage which obviously would help Ukraines need for munitions as production of 155mm hasn't really hit high levels yet.

Oh and an interesting point was. There are a huge amount of mines already littering Ukraines territory, gosh knows how many, which will all have to be cleared at some point in the future. If Ukraine want to use those kinds of munitions on their own soil then so be it. The job of clearing ordinance is going to be staggering no matter if they use cluster munitions or not.
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You cannot argue with pacifists.
The offer no solutions only hand wringing.*

* No lighting a campfire and having a good sing song of kumbahah is not a solution.

Russia has used multiple cluster munitions on civilian areas. I put up a link the last time this came up, showing Ukraine collecting them all where they could.
My views is Ukraine can use basically what they want as long as its not disproportionate. Its their land and if they see saving for example 1000 lives now but accept that maybe over the next 10 years 50 may lose their lives thats a decision for their government.

I watched a video earlier of Russians casually arming and tossing AP mines into bushes surrounding an AT mine.
 
Freddie1980 said:
I'm not sure about 9/1 KD but you can make an inference that ratios on the numbers of dead for the Russians would be higher due to the way Russia uses it's infantry and when. Over the winter there were plenty of videos of Russian recon units being sent out into open fields with no protection or cover one carrying a clip of ammo and the other with a rifle with the idea being whoever died first the other one would have a complete set. Then there were the constant meat wave attacks around Bakhmut for 8 months straight and the disastrous attack in Vuhledar where they lost 130 vehicles.

We don't know where those cluster bombs will be used so I would reserve judgement, anti tank mine clearing and counter battery fire would seem like a obvious use for these types of weapons due to their area of effect properties. I can't see them using on urban environments, when it comes to attack Ukraine has preferred to go around large settlements and threaten encirclement which has been enough to get the Russian's to retreat. Once their on their roads and running away Ukraine can then blast them to kingdom come but using in urban areas would just slowdown any potential for an assault.
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Most of the urban areas Ukraine are trying to retake are going to have all sorts of crap in them already anyway.

Reminded of my dad who grew up not long after the end of the second world war.
he would say that even in the UK it was quite common to find unexploded ordanance etc/.
In fact he talked of a kid from their school who blew most of his hand off by picking something up (sounds like a flak round or similar) putting it in a tree branch and wacking it with a rock!
 
Orangeade said:
So people were crowing about 9:1 KD/R on the other side and now it's magically the other way around? I mean I get a bit of propaganda is needed but cmon...

Also interesting that he highlighted the morally bankrupt nature of cluster munitions. I'm sure the armchair generals here will say he's an idiot...(I'm pretty sure I read recently that the munitions were given on the condition they were not to be used in urban environments because of future collateral damage? Goalposts shifted again I guess..
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KD/R is always going to be somewhat situational, especially when one side outguns the other, that doesn't change the overall nature of it. Related to that as per something I've been banging on about for awhile if we want Ukraine to really make progress, reduce their losses and maybe make the Russian position so untenable they leave of their own accord then one of the big things we could do is pull out all the stops to get them self-propelled artillery of the likes of the AS-90 and derivatives of it like the AHS Krab and the ammo to keep them going. We've wasted probably 12 months or so we could have been re-starting/ramping up production.

Though there were some I don't think most people in this thread were onboard with the idea of cluster munitions but understood that they may be a necessary evil seeing as we haven't pulled out all the stops to give Ukraine the tools to do it the "right" way. (Though I can see why some would want to portray it as people in this thread getting orgasmic at the prospect of Ukraine using cluster munitions).
 
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Harlequin said:
Cambodia has nearly 4 million mines in country, 40 years after the civil wars
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And that is a terrible tragedy. Fortunately for Ukraine its in Europe and the money that will pour in after they have booted the Russians out is going to be substantial. There will be international efforts to quickly clear the country of mines.
 
Colonel_Klinck said:
And that is a terrible tragedy. Fortunately for Ukraine its in Europe and the money that will pour in after they have booted the Russians out is going to be substantial. There will be international efforts to quickly clear the country of mines.
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The petal and other APM's are going to be the main problem I reckon. So small, so easy to miss...not to mention all the booby traps the Russians left. Going to be maimed people for years to come even if this war ended tomorrow.
 
Scougar said:
The petal and other APM's are going to be the main problem I reckon. So small, so easy to miss...not to mention all the booby traps the Russians left. Going to be maimed people for years to come even if this war ended tomorrow.
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One maybe slight mercy with the internet, etc. there is better awareness of this stuff making it easier to inform people and so on, but that will only reduce it a bit :( there are still people maimed every day in other countries with a mine problem with dozens of countries still having large amounts of unexploded ordnance scattered about.
 
Orangeade said:
Excellent morality....we know they are wrong, but if the (clearly morally bankrupt by all their actions to date) Russians have used them, then hey ho it's fine.
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Oh put your pearls down. They're fighting for their very existence. The Russians can always leave, which has been mentioned ad nauseam in this thread.
 
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