Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[pallys]

What would you propose as an alternative action to supporting the Ukrainians?

Appease Russia? Let the Russians rebuild and come back in a few years for the next chunk of Ukraine? A bit of Latvia maybe? Welcome Russia back economically to fund their next war effort?

Escalation takes many forms. Appeasing Russia to fuel their ambitions is probably more likely ro result in the nuclear war you fear so much.

I don't think theres much more that could be done. The supporting nations had the policy bang on, economic sanctions on Russian assets, ban of oil/gas imports and accept any Ukraine refugees who want out.

You could go further and sanction countries who continue to trade with Russia but there isn't enough support for that and the consequences for the majority of the poor taking the most of this burden today is too great. You're alright right? We can pay the x2 x3 energy prices and x2 x3 food inflation, what about the billions globally of poor on staple food diets who can't?

For me weapons support ok too but only for self defence. I only post now because I think Ukraine have just recently crossed that line and I don't think it will stop there.

More people can die later and we then stop or we just stop now and more people live.

 

[Minstadave]

I don't think theres much more that could be done. The supporting nations had the policy bang on, economic sanctions on Russian assets, ban of oil/gas imports and accept any Ukraine refugees who want out.

You could go further and sanction countries who continue to trade with Russia but there isn't enough support for that and the consequences for the majority of the poor taking the most of this burden today is too great. You're alright right? We can pay the x2 x3 energy prices and x2 x3 food inflation, what about the billions globally of poor on staple food diets who can't?

For me weapons support ok too but only for self defence. I only post now because I think Ukraine have just recently crossed that line and I don't think it will stop there.

More people can die later and we then stop or we just stop now and more people live.

So basically you would do exactly what is being done? Which is a complete contradiction of what you previously posted.

What line have Ukraine crossed?

 

[potatolord]

Ipsos polling, first table is interesting.
71% say no to military support.
Only 48% favour weapons support.

https://www.ipsos.com/en/war-in-ukraine-january-2023

It doesn't look like views on this thread are representative. Why do people here try to shame and call people names for having a different view? Its immature.

Also I don't post here to change peoples minds thats a waste of time - but only to share millions have different views and perspectives.

I think usa/uk have crossed the line by attacking crimea bridge by proxy.

A TIME article has it right on this crisis:

"The fact that nuclear war is likely to start via gradual escalation, perhaps combined by accident or miscalculation."

Us/uk attacking crimea by proxy increases this risk profile.

That's old, from jan2023.
The 71% you quote is an average of 28 countries' responses- uk figure was 64% (p7)
71% figure is military involvement, not support

I skimmed the main report and, in the UK, 81% agreed with "my country must support sovereign countries when they are attacked..."

That illustrates the difference in views between involvement and support rather nicely.

Full report is here, with the figures

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2023-01/Global%20Advisor%20-%20War%20in%20Ukraine%20.pdf

 

[Freakbro]

meanwhile the UK is overwhelmingly supporting of the support for Ukraine and its war effort:

One year on, how high is support for Ukraine in Britain? | YouGov

Support for Ukraine remains strong, but has dipped marginally since the summer

yougov.co.uk

I see our resident vatnik and authoritarian boot licker hasn't posted in this thread for a couple of months, probably since his desperate predictions for the collapse in support for Ukraine hasn't materialised.

It's good to go back and see how pathetic his obvious relish was at the thought of the West's resolve crumbling.

This was a reply to Mr Jack saying the Kremlins thoughts were that "the West's support will dwindle and buckle over time. That Western Europe, in particular, doesn't have the stomach for high energy prices over winter and the war's impact on inflation."

I think the view in the Kremlin is very true, Europe are already buckling, and here in the UK councils are trembling behind closed door meetings about how to accommodate all the Ukrainian refugees people no longer want to house, not to mention all time record numbers of illegals being brought safely ashore in Dover.

Wait until the heating isn't working and the bailiffs are at people's doors and see how governments emptying their coffers into and for Ukraine and the rubber boat people goes down.

I said months ago the Ukrainian refugee cash for a room situation would flounder, many here were appalled or laughed. Come winter European support for ploughing more and more money and resources into Ukraine will too, leaving massive debts never to be repaid and our housing situations far worse. Anyway, wasn't Mr Putin dying? The war all but over and the Russians a laughing stock? We'll see whose laughing in Germany in a few months. Things are bad there now and rapidly going down hill. Time to see what 2 million mainly undocumented refugees can do to help their hosts out...

Let's check in to see how Germany got on after the winter..

Germany announces $3 billion military aid package for Ukraine ahead of expected Zelenskyy visit

Germany says it's providing Ukraine with additional military aid worth more than 2.7 billion euros ($3 billion) including tanks, anti-aircraft systems and ammunition. The announcement came on the eve of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s first visit to Germany since Russia invaded his...

apnews.com

Oh

 

[Rroff]

For me weapons support ok too but only for self defence. I only post now because I think Ukraine have just recently crossed that line and I don't think it will stop there.

More people can die later and we then stop or we just stop now and more people live.

You obviously aren't thinking these things through - only supplying Ukraine with defensive weapons means the war drags on, more people die.

How do you propose the war ends now? you seem to trust Russia's take on things... remember when they were saying don't worry about those troops and equipment building up on the Ukraine border, it is all training, they aren't a threat to Ukraine and will be going home in a few weeks? (turns out they were half right - those troops didn't pose much of a threat to Ukraine and many of them went home in a few weeks... in body bags).

This doesn't end at Ukraine despite what you seem to have been talked into believing given your portrayal of Putin a few posts back compared to the reality we've seen unfolding over the last few months.

 

[Mr Jack]

For me weapons support ok too but only for self defence. I only post now because I think Ukraine have just recently crossed that line and I don't think it will stop there.

Ukraine retaking Crimea is self-defence. Or do you think that self-defence doesn't include taking back annexed territory? So that Russia can just annex stuff and then we should just like shrug and go "guess that belongs to Russia now, so sad"?

If Ukraine is to drive Russia out of Ukraine then it needs weapons to strike military targets in the occupied regions of their country and to cut supply lines to Russian forces within those regions.

That's all self-defence.

 

[melmac]

And stop referring to brexit every single time the people had their referendum let it go - its completely off topic is it not?

Your reply is as stupid as the rest of your posts in this thread.

He wasn't referring to Brexit, He was referring to the poor quality of your posts in Brexit threads. Your reply actually proved that he was right when he made the following statement.

Your usual levels of inability to understand.
Just like you bring to Brexit threads.

You couldn't even follow a simple conversation without getting it wrong. Your posts in this thread have shown no intelligence whatsoever. Worse than that, they shown no empathy. Your posts have been driven by your fear and selfishness. You have a complete lack of understanding of what's going on and post meaningless sound bytes and polls. Polls that you misinterpret.

Posters in this thread aren't calling you out because you have a different viewpoint, they are calling you out because you are posting absolute drivel. While suggesting that you wouldn't care if Ukraine was wiped out as long as it meant that you could save some money buying bread.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

You obviously aren't thinking these things through - only supplying Ukraine with defensive weapons means the war drags on, more people die.

How do you propose the war ends now? you seem to trust Russia's take on things... remember when they were saying don't worry about those troops and equipment building up on the Ukraine border, it is all training, they aren't a threat to Ukraine and will be going home in a few weeks? (turns out they were half right - those troops didn't pose much of a threat to Ukraine and many of them went home in a few weeks... in body bags).

This doesn't end at Ukraine despite what you seem to have been talked into believing given your portrayal of Putin a few posts back compared to the reality we've seen unfolding over the last few months.

Just to point out he did say self defence as opposed to defensive weapons.

This is always the difficulty, whats a defensive weapon, whats an offensive weapon. Most can be used offensively and defensively. Some clearly more one bucket than another, but generally none are pure one or the other.

Surely all the weapons we are supplying now are being used defensively.
To defend the country from an armed invasion.

 

[Rroff]

Just to point out he did say self defence as opposed to defensive weapons.

This is always the difficulty, whats a defensive weapon, whats an offensive weapon. Most can be used offensively and defensively. Some clearly more one bucket than another, but generally none are pure one or the other.

Surely all the weapons we are supplying now are being used defensively.
To defend the country from an armed invasion.

Comes down to the same difference in this context though - if we only enable Ukraine for self-defence the war likely just drags on, more people die, more misery but I guess in their thinking it is less likely to affect them that way :s

 

[Mr Jack]

While suggesting that you wouldn't care if Ukraine was wiped out as long as it meant that you could save some money buying bread.

Tbh, it'd be kind of refreshing if someone actually came and openly argued that.

 

[EddScott]

Ipsos polling, first table is interesting.
71% say no to military support.
Only 48% favour weapons support.

https://www.ipsos.com/en/war-in-ukraine-january-2023

It doesn't look like views on this thread are representative. Why do people here try to shame and call people names for having a different view? Its immature.

Also I don't post here to change peoples minds thats a waste of time - but only to share millions have different views and perspectives.

I think usa/uk have crossed the line by attacking crimea bridge by proxy.

A TIME article has it right on this crisis:

"The fact that nuclear war is likely to start via gradual escalation, perhaps combined by accident or miscalculation."

Us/uk attacking crimea by proxy increases this risk profile.

71% said no to getting involved militarily - that will mean boots on the ground in UA.

The rest shows fairly positive opinion for continued support in UA, thank you.

USA/UK crossed the line? RU crossed the line last year, RU crossed the line in 2014. The Holodomor? How far would you like me to go back? Crossed the line - what a joke.

Nuclear war? Xi Ping visit to RU wasn't a comforting shoulder to a brother in distress. It was a warning, use a nuke and you are most definately on your own. China needs the West far more than it needs RU.

You really must face facts. RU lost the war in February 2022. What has followed is one man not being able to cope with defeat and costing tens of thousands of lives.

The West will not allow UA to fail. China will not save RU from itself. RU only friends are basket case countries in the middle east and/or countries too weak or too corrupt to matter.

 

[Uther]

I see our resident vatnik and authoritarian boot licker hasn't posted in this thread for a couple of months, probably since his desperate predictions for the collapse in support for Ukraine hasn't materialised.

It's good to go back and see how pathetic his obvious relish was at the thought of the West's resolve crumbling.

This was a reply to Mr Jack saying the Kremlins thoughts were that "the West's support will dwindle and buckle over time. That Western Europe, in particular, doesn't have the stomach for high energy prices over winter and the war's impact on inflation."



Let's check in to see how Germany got on after the winter..

Germany announces $3 billion military aid package for Ukraine ahead of expected Zelenskyy visit

Germany says it's providing Ukraine with additional military aid worth more than 2.7 billion euros ($3 billion) including tanks, anti-aircraft systems and ammunition. The announcement came on the eve of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s first visit to Germany since Russia invaded his...

apnews.com

Oh

IIRC he was thread banned.

 

[Rroff]

Tbh, it'd be kind of refreshing if someone actually came and openly argued that.

To be fair it is easy to hold the views I do when the cost of living crisis is an inconvenience (mostly) rather than wondering whether I can afford the next meal vs electricity bill, etc. But that doesn't change the equation unfortunately, only that we should be doing more in this country to better balance the inequality.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Comes down to the same difference in this context though - if we only enable Ukraine for self-defence the war likely just drags on, more people die, more misery but I guess in their thinking it is less likely to affect them that way :s

Oh yes, which is why I cannot see how you can really enable self defence, but not offence.
What exactly would you supply to an army that would only provide self defence but no offence.
About the only "weapon" I can think of that basically meets that criteria is mines. AT/AP mines.
There are some fairly arguable offensive capabilities but generally they are defensive only.

So we could supply them gazillions of mines, and they could mine the hell out of Ukraine slowly in reverse as they lose small amounts of land.
Wagner/Russia could play zerg rush into minefields basically re-enacting WW1 levels of dumb to gain tiny pieces of ground.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

To be fair it is easy to hold the views I do when the cost of living crisis is an inconvenience (mostly) rather than wondering whether I can afford the next meal vs electricity bill, etc. But that doesn't change the equation unfortunately, only that we should be doing more in this country to better balance the inequality.

Even if people are struggling to pay for the next meal
Its basically got nothing to do with supporting Ukraine, and everything to do with how our democracy is functioning, and things like Brexit.
Yes I mention Brexit because he was pants on head in regards Brexit and the benefits.

I can't help it when a person thinks Brexit is a benefit and yet is complaining abut food prices.
I would stake money on him having voted for Boris at the last election as well.

What we have given to Ukraine in real terms is pretty much a rounding error in regards our nations finances.

If the likes of Putin are more enabled and more powerful then the impact from the invasion would only be a fraction of the damage they could inflict on us at a later date.

 

[Freakbro]

IIRC he was thread banned.

Oh, well that's a start I suppose

 

[Rroff]

If the likes of Putin are more enabled and more powerful then the impact from the invasion would only be a fraction of the damage they could inflict on us at a later date.

The way I see it Putin didn't set out for an invasion of Europe but if Ukraine had simply folded with little more than a whimper from the West then Moldova would have been next, large "defensive" Russian troop build ups along the border with Poland, then he'd start nibbling at south eastern Europe, probably giving places which are somewhat Russian favourable like Hungary a "join us or die" ultimatum as they splinter off into something more like Belarus. Eventually turning to the likes of Poland and the Baltics closer to the end of the decade.

(We've seen the evidence of sabotage, espionage, etc. to support that eventuality in those countries so definitely something they've an interest in).

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

The way I see it Putin didn't set out for an invasion of Europe but if Ukraine had simply folded with little more than a whimper from the West then Moldova would have been next, large "defensive" Russian troop build ups along the border with Poland, then he'd start nibbling at south eastern Europe, probably giving places which are somewhat Russian favourable like Hungary a "join us or die" ultimatum as they splinter off into something more like Belarus. Eventually turning to the likes of Poland and the Baltics closer to the end of the decade.

(We've seen the evidence of sabotage, espionage, etc. to support that eventuality in those countries so definitely something they've an interest in).

Seems a rational position.

We know he saw a return to something akin to the USSR as "restoration".

 

[Mr Jack]

The way I see it Putin didn't set out for an invasion of Europe but if Ukraine had simply folded with little more than a whimper from the West then Moldova would have been next, large "defensive" Russian troop build ups along the border with Poland, then he'd start nibbling at south eastern Europe, probably giving places which are somewhat Russian favourable like Hungary a "join us or die" ultimatum as they splinter off into something more like Belarus. Eventually turning to the likes of Poland and the Baltics closer to the end of the decade.

(We've seen the evidence of sabotage, espionage, etc. to support that eventuality in those countries so definitely something they've an interest in).

I suspect the Russian plan, if there was anything that developed, was to break up the EU, and then seek to bring weaker countries into the Russian sphere of influence. Russia has certainly tried to weaken democracy and liberal ideas in countries like Hungary and backed Brexit (as well as anti-EU causes elsewhere). The degree of success of these operations is hard to judge, but is unlikely to have been nothing.

Russia has been stirring for a long time, I'm not sure how much it was specific goals and how much they think that if others are weak then they are comparatively strong.

 

[Peter75]

Two ammo dumps in Crimea have been hit, one is quite big and is cooking off, nearby villages need evacuating

Yet the Russian tourists are still crossing a bridge which was recently attacked by subs/dolphins/drones/NATO ninjas (take your pick depending on your personal belief) to go on holiday there. Mind you, I've seen worse on a Friday night in Sunderland town centre back in the 80s so there's that.