Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Orangeade said:
So the plucky fighters should use chemical and biological if they want? Nuclear if they could get hands on it?
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If my kids were getting mutilated and raped and the aggressors were using such weapons, sure, there’s no rule book that anyone would give a toss about.

Easy to say you wouldn’t, sat behind a keyboard in a cushy, nuclear armed state surrounded by water and part of a huge global mutual defence alliance.
 
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Freakbro said:
I'm still personally struggling to say the use of cluster munitions is fine tbh, because we (as a country) have signed the treaty banning their use.

The arguments of :
Its a war
Ukraine is fighting for it's existence
They are very effective in this scenario

Don't really wash with me, as we knew all those things about cluster munitions and when they get used and we still signed the treaty, so the cons must outweigh the pro's.

The only thing I can vaguely rationalise it with is it's Ukraine asking to use them on it's own soil, so that's their choice. Yes, it probably sentences a number of future civilians to death or injury, but that's no different to what Russia is doing to their citizens intentionally now.
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One of the reasons we signed against them is the failure rate and the fact that, as you state, it sentences future civilians to death or injury. The munitions supplied by the US have a very low failure rate. I believe less than 2%. This somewhat alleviates, although doesn't remove, the concern.
Russian munitions are apparently in the 40-50% range for failures.
 
alec said:
If it fails totally on its own, all effort and resources put into cold war were completely unnecessary waste
There is no need to blockade or sanction Cuba and North Korea.
And definitely no need to keep up the anticommunist propaganda and lies 30 years after fall of USSR.

Communism is an existential threat to capitalists (who btw don't even know the meaning of words greed and corruption). Thats why they won't let off
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We (the west) do things our way. Other forms of governments can try different ways if they wish, but our system seems to produce better results (overall) than the other forms of government have.

The biggest problem with any form of government is humans and human nature.

Free market systems try to harness human nature and Communisim tries to suppress it.

I have yet to hear of any system of government without serious problems (again, humans), but free markets seem to at least provide tangible, positive, results for large portions of the populace.
 
Dis86 said:
One of the reasons we signed against them is the failure rate and the fact that, as you state, it sentences future civilians to death or injury. The munitions supplied by the US have a very low failure rate. I believe less than 2%. This somewhat alleviates, although doesn't remove, the concern.
Russian munitions are apparently in the 40-50% range for failures.
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Yup. Either way the land will be unusable due to Russian mines and cluster weapons, so it’s moot. If that land is captured it’ll end up being a militarised buffer for generations anyway.
 
Freakbro said:
I'm still personally struggling to say the use of cluster munitions is fine tbh, because we (as a country) have signed the treaty banning their use.

The arguments of :
Its a war
Ukraine is fighting for it's existence
They are very effective in this scenario

Don't really wash with me, as we knew all those things about cluster munitions and when they get used and we still signed the treaty, so the cons must outweigh the pro's.

The only thing I can vaguely rationalise it with is it's Ukraine asking to use them on it's own soil, so that's their choice. Yes, it probably sentences a number of future civilians to death or injury, but that's no different to what Russia is doing to their citizens intentionally now.
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I don't think we should see their use as fine, but unless we are pulling out all the stops to help them do things the "right" way I find it grotesque to condemn them for it in this particular situation.
 
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If anyone is interested :

Just War and the Responsibility to Protect: A Critique: Amazon.co.uk: Robin Dunford and Michael Neu: 9781786991508: Books

Buy Just War and the Responsibility to Protect: A Critique by Robin Dunford and Michael Neu (ISBN: 9781786991508) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.
www.amazon.co.uk

Is written by 2 of my tutors at uni ; this and https://www.amazon.co.uk/Just-Liber...7:Michael+Neu&s=books&sr=1-3&text=Michael+Neu are a good set about `Just War` theory (aka bombing for peace)
 
Sythe79 said:
I'm sure the former Ukrainian republic of Russia's people look forward to you awarding them a fair play award in the future.
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This is so boring a reply. Really?

Rroff said:
I don't think we should see their use as fine, but unless we are pulling out all the stops to help them do things the "right" way I find it grotesque to condemn them for it in this particular situation.
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So the use isn't fine, but it's fine?

jigger said:
The plucky fighters along with men women and children are getting phosphorus dropped on them. Is it OK?
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Did I say it was at any stage? Or are you just frothing like a lunatic?

alchal said:
Care to point me to your post condemning Russia using cluster munitions in Syria and then Ukraine.
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Where is the thread about syria, and I will post the same there? I clearly stated my opinion on Russia a mere few posts ago. What further do I need to post to condemn their actions?
 
Scougar said:
Isn't that what all Communist countries do though, pretend to be communist? Corruption/greed will always be the downfall of communism. It's a'nice idea' that in practice always totally fails, because people are people and always want more.
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Yep some humans are greedy. Iain Banks The Culture is arguably communist. No money, the Minds control production but its a post scarcity society so no one wants for anything. People work because they enjoy it and to give something back to society. Would never work on Earth without a major change in our nature.
 
Rroff said:
Been like that most of this year, since they started more frequent, though relatively low amount, of nightly attacks, where dateable the missile fragments/remains have more often than not been 2022 or 2023 parts. The slightly more interesting note is they seem to have scaled up monthly production to about double expected - whether that is from running more shifts or expanding/new facilities I don't know.
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Didnt north Korea pledge thousands of shells? I assume Iran with be selling them to them too.

I think the chances of them running out would be pretty slim.

Missiles on the other hand will be harder for them to produce in large numbers
Minusorange said:
Playing exactly into Putin's end game
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Putins end game was to take Kyiv in a couple of days, install his puppet as leader like Lukashenko and be home in time for breakfast.

When that went out the window it all went south and he played it badly.

Now he's in a mess he really cant get out of alive.
 
Orangeade said:
So the use isn't fine, but it's fine?
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That is a really poor quality take on what I said.

But it would be poor for us to be critical of Ukraine when their backs are to a wall and there is much more we could be doing to help them do things the "right" way - sitting back sniping at them while doing limited amounts to help is the kind of thing I expect from certain forum posters like yourself. That doesn't in any way mean we are fine with it.
 
Orangeade said:
Really? You will say the same **** for all methods employed?



War or conflict? What difference does it make? It's people killing people.



Russia are morally bankrupt a$$holes that we shouldn't try and emulate. Just because bad people do things doesn't mean we should follow suit.
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Yea and back in the real world................
 
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