Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

bingham67 · 2 Oct 2023 at 16:16

https://twitter.com/x/status/1708815184528130513

melmac · 2 Oct 2023 at 16:16

Roar87 said:
You can actually be pro-Ukraine and disagree with Zelensky's strategy given he seemingly wants to fight an endless war of attrition. Zelensky is not Ukraine.

Do you have a source for this? All the evidence so far seems to suggest that Zelensky is trying to repel an invasion by a hostile force and wanting to get his country restored to to it's entirety.

Roar87 said:
If Russia has seriously offered to withdraw back to the original borders for Ukraine not joining NATO then Zelensky should jump at that offer if he values the lives of his countrymen.

I haven't seen any offer by Russia to go back to withdraw back to the original borders.

And just for reference, you know this invasion started in 2014. The "original" borders include Crimea. Why do keep ignoring this?

jigger · 2 Oct 2023 at 16:24

Roar87 said:
You can actually be pro-Ukraine and disagree with Zelensky's strategy given he seemingly wants to fight an endless war of attrition. Zelensky is not Ukraine.

Maybe his testosterone levels need checking? But seriously, how you come to some of your conclusions is hard to imagine.

Tuppy_Glossop · 2 Oct 2023 at 16:28

Roar87 said:
How would them going again be worse than the current war? You're basically saying we should keep fighting a war just incase another war breaks out. This logic is so baffling to me I can't quite get my head around it.

I believe the idea is to push Russia completely out (including Crimea) and enter NATO on their own terms to prevent any future incursions. Pain now with full sovereignty and border integrity. The Ukranians believe this is worth fighting for. And there is no guarantee the Russians can give that will convince them that Russia will not invade again, hence the desire to enter NATO.

NickK · 2 Oct 2023 at 16:32

Roar87 said:
Russia won't give up Crimea for anything I guess, but it was basically Russian anyway.

Oh deary me.

Crimea was only russian from 1783 that it was Tukish, Roman, and Greek.

Roar87 · 2 Oct 2023 at 16:38

Tuppy_Glossop said:
I believe the idea is to push Russia completely out (including Crimea) and enter NATO on their own terms to prevent any future incursions. Pain now with full sovereignty and border integrity. The Ukranians believe this is worth fighting for. And there is no guarantee the Russians can give that will convince them that Russia will not invade again, hence the desire to enter NATO.

Yes, that idea is basically a fantasy. The borders have barely moved after a year of fighting. There isn't a point where Russia runs out of men and surrenders and goes home. Essentially we're fighting a forever war that is bleeding all of our economies and the only benefactors are the companies selling weapons.

CaneyJ · 2 Oct 2023 at 16:43

The talking points of this guy jeez

Rroff · 2 Oct 2023 at 16:44

Roar87 said:
Yes, that idea is basically a fantasy. The borders have barely moved after a year of fighting. There isn't a point where Russia runs out of men and surrenders and goes home. Essentially we're fighting a forever war that is bleeding all of our economies and the only benefactors are the companies selling weapons.

And? the unspoken continuation of your post is to sell out Ukraine for a bit of convenience in the West, and untold future misery for Ukraine even so. While still having significant chance of Russia being a problem for the West for years to come.

Hawk Tuah · 2 Oct 2023 at 16:44

Roar87 said:
Yes, that idea is basically a fantasy. The borders have barely moved after a year of fighting. There isn't a point where Russia runs out of men and surrenders and goes home. Essentially we're fighting a forever war that is bleeding all of our economies and the only benefactors are the companies selling weapons.

We? You seem to have dodged the who 'our' military is question again comrade.

StriderX · 2 Oct 2023 at 16:46

Roar87 said:
There isn't a point where Russia runs out of men and surrenders and goes home.

So you accept they intend on growing their ambitions regardless of what we do and we'll be dragged in at some point?

Better we accept this today than pretend it's not a problem and be unprepared later.

Hawk Tuah · 2 Oct 2023 at 16:48

Roar87 said:
There isn't an amount of military aid we can give short of the US entering the war itself that will end it unfortunately. Most European militaries also just don't have that much hardware to give without compromising their own national defense. If Russia has seriously offered to withdraw back to the original borders for Ukraine not joining NATO then Zelensky should jump at that offer if he values the lives of his countrymen.

Peace in our time eh.

jigger · 2 Oct 2023 at 16:58

Roar87 said:
Yes, that idea is basically a fantasy. The borders have barely moved after a year of fighting. There isn't a point where Russia runs out of men and surrenders and goes home. Essentially we're fighting a forever war that is bleeding all of our economies and the only benefactors are the companies selling weapons.

Russia can only turn this war around if allowed the time and resources to rebuild its lost heavy arms. Vladolf can pull the Russian forces out of Ukraine and end the war at anytime.

Rroff · 2 Oct 2023 at 17:10

Roar87 said:
Yes, that idea is basically a fantasy. The borders have barely moved after a year of fighting. There isn't a point where Russia runs out of men and surrenders and goes home. Essentially we're fighting a forever war that is bleeding all of our economies and the only benefactors are the companies selling weapons.

There is more going on than just territory changes, there is much shaping of the strategic landscape going on i.e. hitting logistics but ultimately Russia does have significant ability to stay in this war so it is important that Ukraine gets the capabilities to make it so Russia doesn't even want to be in Ukraine if there is going to be any sort of good outcome.

Rroff · 2 Oct 2023 at 17:14

Roar87 said:
There isn't an amount of military aid we can give short of the US entering the war itself that will end it unfortunately. Most European militaries also just don't have that much hardware to give without compromising their own national defense. If Russia has seriously offered to withdraw back to the original borders for Ukraine not joining NATO then Zelensky should jump at that offer if he values the lives of his countrymen.

The West can ramp up production if they choose to do so, Ukraine can bring the Russian military they are prepared to commit to Ukraine to its knees if given the hardware to fight them via sophistication.

jigger · 2 Oct 2023 at 17:17

New reports Vladolf is raiding the Russian prison system hard. This time though the prisoners seem a lot older and in worse health. The Russian MOD is keeping the troop training and equipment costs to a bare minimum. Prison to frontline in 2 weeks.

potatolord · 2 Oct 2023 at 17:30

jigger said:
New reports Vladolf is raiding the Russian prison system hard. This time though the prisoners seem a lot older and in worse health. The Russian MOD is keeping the troop training and equipment costs to a bare minimum. Prison to frontline in 2 weeks.

I'd take five years in a Kolyma lead mine over being chucked in the mincer.

Angilion · 2 Oct 2023 at 17:47

Roar87 said:
Yes, that idea is basically a fantasy. The borders have barely moved after a year of fighting. There isn't a point where Russia runs out of men and surrenders and goes home. Essentially we're fighting a forever war that is bleeding all of our economies and the only benefactors are the companies selling weapons.

And it's far better for us to help Ukraine fight that war there than for us to be fighting that war here later on, without support and with Russia stronger from all the resources it looted. There's a lot of oil and gas and farming in Ukraine. That's part of the reason why Russia is trying to conquer Ukraine and make it part of Russia.

Your argument was made in the 1930s. Russia/Germany, Ukraine/Poland. Your argument was acted on in the 1930s. Russia/Germany, Ukraine/Czechoslovakia. It didn't work then and it wouldn't work now. Appeasement only works if it gives the aggressor what they want not just now but in the future. Which means there has to be a limit to what they want. The current regime in Russia might possibly be satisfied with restoring the Russian empire to its maximum historical extent, including all of Eastern Europe, but probably not. Why would it be, if it was winning?

Chamberlain used the time bought by appeasement to prepare for the war that was already being forced on everyone by a violent expansionist imperialistic authoritarian regime. You're just advocating appeasement until surrender to it.

Roar87 said:
There isn't an amount of military aid we can give short of the US entering the war itself that will end it unfortunately. Most European militaries also just don't have that much hardware to give without compromising their own national defense. If Russia has seriously offered to withdraw back to the original borders for Ukraine not joining NATO then Zelensky should jump at that offer if he values the lives of his countrymen.

That would be very silly thing for Ukraine to do in response to an obvious lie from Russia. A lie with Russia hasn't even made - you just made it up yourself. Bear in mind that Russia already agreed to not just respect Ukraine's borders but to actively help Ukraine defend itself if attacked. That was in exchange for Ukraine giving up a lot of its capability to defend itself. You know how that turned out. It turned out that it was a protection racket and it wasn't long before the gang running the racket decided that having their target paying them for "protection" from them was less profitable than stealing everything. Like a gang deciding that rather than extorting "protection" money from a business they'll storm in, kill the business owner, kill all the employees (so they can replace them with their own people) and then own the business themselves so they can get all the profit rather than some of it.

NickK · 2 Oct 2023 at 18:54

Roar87 said:
Yes, that idea is basically a fantasy. The borders have barely moved after a year of fighting. There isn't a point where Russia runs out of men and surrenders and goes home. Essentially we're fighting a forever war that is bleeding all of our economies and the only benefactors are the companies selling weapons.

There is a point where confidence in putin drops..

SpellowHouse · 2 Oct 2023 at 18:59

Angilion said:
And it's far better for us to help Ukraine fight that war there than for us to be fighting that war here later on, without support and with Russia stronger from all the resources it looted. There's a lot of oil and gas and farming in Ukraine. That's part of the reason why Russia is trying to conquer Ukraine and make it part of Russia.

I think it was an American general who recently said that this war is a bargain for the West. We have depleted the Russian military by one half, for a small fraction of the (US yearly) military budget, and all for no US casualties.

jigger · 2 Oct 2023 at 19:00

Looks like Australia has the first batch of slinger anti drone systems ready to go to the Ukrainians. These Should help out with the limited Gepard ammunition. Switzerland should probably reconsider its position on Gepard ammunition now Iran has setup production of its Shahed drones in Russia.