Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Johnnytoxic said:
You don't know what the truth is there, you cannot rule out the protests were getting out of hand and protesters started to be aggressive towards police.

Who knows what triggered it.
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http://news.howzit.msn.com/news-in-pics/ukraine-mourns-protest-deaths-28

Look at those pictures and tell me that 40-50 yearold woman in center "triggered" it by being aggressive. Or the man holding his cat. Take your head out of rear end and open your eyes. Those people were massacred in the streets, in Europe, in the 21st century! There's no excuse for it, none, zero, NADA.
 
Zethor said:
That's what it comes down to here. Ukraine has a future in the EU/Nato where as it remaining in Russia's sphere of influence is a dead end. If you were Ukrainians, who would you prefer as "buddies"? Belarus and Kazakhstan or France and the UK?
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As I understand it the East of Ukraine would benefit most from being with Russia, and the West would benefit from being with Europe. There is a big East/West divide, and the people want different things.
 
US Sends Warships To Crimea, Hundreds Of NATO Troops Land In Western Ukraine

http://www.pakalertpress.com/2014/0...&utm_campaign=Feed:+pakalert+(Pak+Alert+Press)
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eek!, if that's true maybe it's why Putin is backing down? /shrug.


Zethor said:
Look at those pictures and tell me that 40-50 yearold woman in center "triggered" it by being aggressive. Or the man holding his cat. Take your head out of rear end and open your eyes. Those people were massacred in the streets, in Europe, in the 21st century! There's no excuse for it, none, zero, NADA.
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So your saying a person who holds their cat in a Facebook pic cannot be violent?

I am not saying the people in those pictures invited their fate, they by no means deserved it. But they chose to take part in non peaceful protests, nobody forced them too.


Gilly said:
As I understand it the East of Ukraine would benefit most from being with Russia, and the West would benefit from being with Europe. There is a big East/West divide, and the people want different things.
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Pretty much sums everything up.
 
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Gilly said:
As I understand it the East of Ukraine would benefit most from being with Russia, and the West would benefit from being with Europe. There is a big East/West divide, and the people want different things.
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The oligarch's who rule in the East would benefit from it, yes. The people not so much. The people benefit from freedom, democracy and the rule of the law, none of which Russia stands for.
 
Zethor said:
Look at those pictures and tell me that 40-50 yearold woman in center "triggered" it by being aggressive. Or the man holding his cat. Take your head out of rear end and open your eyes. Those people were massacred in the streets, in Europe, in the 21st century! There's no excuse for it, none, zero, NADA.
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Of course you will have a mix of people in the protests but you cannot be 100% certain there were no hard line protesters taking it to the next level.

Even John Mccain was in Ukraine on a podium speaking to protestors. You don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

After the Syria affair, I never without a second thought of my own believe anything that is portrayed on BBC and Sky News as gospel.
 
Zethor said:
No it's not like that at all.

It's like the UK Govt. saying no to having an EU referedum, followed by months of mass protests in sub freezing temperatures and then close to 100 people gunned down in the streets like animals along with footage showing snipers casually picking targets and pulling the trigger. If you honestly think any Western Govt. would get away with acting in this manner, you are crazy.

That being said, crazy is not the best diagnosis here. A more accurate one is "Ooo look at me as I criticise my Govt/media, comparing them to autocratic regimes/media, while I enjoy freedom, democracy and wealth. Down with The West!".
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You'd do well writing articles for Fox News. Why do you always have to bend the facts? The violence escalated after prolong use of molotovs by the protesters, the nationalistic members such as right sector and svoboda had guns aimed at berkut, protestors were setting berkut on fire well before berkut started using weapons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YQPF73RZlg this was essentially the last straw which caused berkut to use weapons (in before you will go for strawman no I do not condone anything that berkut has done).

And don't you do this cheesy pointless "was this granny holding a loaf of bread deserving of a bullet to the head" nonsense. The protesters were made up of both simple peaceful people and aggressive nationalistic thugs that wanted the situation to escalate.
 
Zethor said:
The oligarch's who rule in the East would benefit from it, yes. The people not so much. The people benefit from freedom, democracy and the rule of the law, none of which Russia stands for.
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The people in the East of the country work in industries that are reliant on Russia for the workload. The people in Eastern Russia wanted Russian soldiers to come North from Crimea or across the border to protect them from those that deposed Yanukovich in an unconstitutional coup.

Radio 2, Radio 4, FT, all have reported Eastern Ukrainians wanting Russian involvement.

That the Western Ukrainians don't want Russian involvement does not bely the full story.
 
ubersonic said:
eek!, if that's true maybe it's why Putin is backing down? /shrug.




So your saying a person who holds their cat in a Facebook pic cannot be violent?

I am not saying the people in those pictures invited their fate, they by no means deserved it. But they chose to take part in non peaceful protests, nobody forced them too.
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Of course you will have a mix of people in the protests but you cannot be 100% certain there were no hard line protesters taking it to the next level.
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You two have lived your lives on the cushion of freedom and democracy and you failed to educate yourself on what it is like to live under an authocratic regime.

This isn't about the level of violence during a protest (and even if it were, there was no widespread destruction/looting made by Ukrainians during months of protest, as opposed to what happened in France/the Uk a few years back).

At some point, an ordere was made which allowed the police to use live ammmunition. After that, snipers were shown picking off protesters. It doesn't matter if some of the protesters were throwing rocks/Molotov cocktails or if they were in melee with the shields. When a Govt. issues a "fire at will" order, it loses legitimacy instantly in a democracy, period.
 
Gilly said:
The people in the East of the country work in industries that are reliant on Russia for the workload. The people in Eastern Russia wanted Russian soldiers to come North from Crimea or across the border to protect them from those that deposed Yanukovich in an unconstitutional coup.

Radio 2, Radio 4, FT, all have reported Eastern Ukrainians wanting Russian involvement.

That the Western Ukrainians don't want Russian involvement does not bely the full story.
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I got an idea... lets make a massive wall and divide Ukrainian into two, calling it.... eeerm... West and East Ukrainian and we can call that period while the wall is up the 'Moderately Cold War'

I'm a genius I tell you!

Stelly
 
Zethor said:
At some point, an ordere was made which allowed the police to use live ammmunition. After that, snipers were shown picking off protesters. It doesn't matter if some of the protesters were throwing rocks/Molotov cocktails or if they were in melee with the shields. When a Govt. issues a "fire at will" order, it loses legitimacy instantly in a democracy, period.
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You know Britain and the US have both been in this situation right?
 
Nerusy said:
You'd do well writing articles for Fox News. Why do you always have to bend the facts? The violence escalated after prolong use of molotovs by the protesters, the nationalistic members such as right sector and svoboda had guns aimed at berkut, protestors were setting berkut on fire well before berkut started using weapons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YQPF73RZlg this was essentially the last straw which caused berkut to use weapons (in before you will go for strawman no I do not condone anything that berkut has done).

And don't you do this cheesy pointless "was this granny holding a loaf of bread deserving of a bullet to the head" nonsense. The protesters were made up of both simple peaceful people and aggressive nationalistic thugs that wanted the situation to escalate.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–12_Greek_protests

Can you explain why the Greek didn't gun down their own people despite hundreds of thousands protesting (often violently), many dying in various circumstances and molotov cocktails thrown all over the place? What about the UK protests? Or France?

In fact can you give me an example of people dying in the dozens to bullets in Europe after the fall of communist regimes?
 
Zethor said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–12_Greek_protests

Can you explain why the Greek didn't gun down their own people despite hundreds of thousands protesting (often violently), many dying in various circumstances and molotov cocktails thrown all over the place? What about the UK protests? Or France?

In fact can you give me an example of people dying in the dozens to bullets in Europe after the fall of communist regimes?
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Once again what does this have to do with me calling you out on biased rhetoric? Could you stop with this "if you call me out on bias rhetoric you must be pro-authoritarian government" enough with black and white accusations, if you want to be taken seriously then do not spew out biased rhetoric.
 
I've checked the last 10 pages so hopefully not a repeat:

30kek1s.jpg
 
Nerusy said:
Once again what does this have to do with me calling you out on biased rhetoric? Could you stop with this "if you call me out on bias rhetoric you must be pro-authoritarian government" enough with black and white accusations, if you want to be taken seriously then do not spew out biased rhetoric.
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I may be biased but I also have a better understanding of the situation because I've lived through something very similar, albeit deadlier as it was the military that got the order to fire at will at protesters rather than the police.

Like the people of Ukraine who lost someone, I later heard how the bullets were actually aimed at "terrorists" and "fascists" yet they mysteriously missed the dangerous individuals and ended up in the bodies of normal protesters like the woman or the guy with the cat in the pictures.

There is no excuse for using live ammunition against protesting crowds as it's impossible to pin point the extremist elements and to avoid heavy innocent casualties. I find it insulting to read opinions such as "you don't know what the truth is". The families who lost those people know what the truth is.
 
Lol accurate. Putin has run circles around Obama who is looking completely lame duck now in the face of Russian aggression.
 
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