Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

Status
Not open for further replies.
Just watched the BBC news at One. In Ukraine there's some Russian's trying to storm some of the government buildings, trying to siege it etc. Sounds rather a contrast to the Ukrainian's peacefully stood outside the Russian embassy holding placards.
 
Zethor said:
I may be biased but I also have a better understanding of the situation because I've lived through something very similar, albeit deadlier as it was the military that got the order to fire at will at protesters rather than the police.

Like the people of Ukraine who lost someone, I later heard how the bullets were actually aimed at "terrorists" and "fascists" yet they mysteriously missed the dangerous individuals and ended up in the bodies of normal protesters like the woman or the guy with the cat in the pictures.

There is no excuse for using live ammunition against protesting crowds as it's impossible to pin point the extremist elements and to avoid heavy innocent casualties. I find it insulting to read opinions such as "you don't know what the truth is". The families who lost those people know what the truth is.
Click to expand...

I didn't say you don't know that truth, however it is the case, you do not know the truth. Your experience helps you with confirmation bias thus putting all your emotions into overdrive mode. All you have are various media reports which are heavily biased from both sides.

Once again you keep pushing this idea that berkut are evil thugs, whereas I do not deny nor confirm this, this is not my argument, my argument is, enough with biased rhetoric. Also, as was mentioned before, just because a guy took a picture with a cat looks benign does not automatically make him innocent nor does it make him nationalistic. What you are doing is textbook manipulation of emotions appealing to supposed innocence based on a picture.

You portrait the events as peaceful protesters being gunned down for no reason, completely ignoring the events which lead to this.
 
Devlish said:
Lol accurate. Putin has run circles around Obama who is looking completely lame duck now in the face of Russian aggression.
Click to expand...

In fairness, what can Obama do? Economic and political sanctions are under-way, beyond that the only option which remains is military. Do you think sending a NATO task force in would help the situation?

Putin is actually the loser in this scenario. This time last year, The Ukraine was a Russian puppet, but it's now slipped his grasp. The very best he can hope to achieve is to limit his losses to just Western Ukraine. More likely he's going to lose everything but the Crimea, which may become an independent state or be annexed.
 
Zethor said:
I find it insulting to read opinions such as "you don't know what the truth is". The families who lost those people know what the truth is.
Click to expand...
Zethor you've just completely misquoted him and picked upon emotionalism to try to counteract his point which doesn't work.

Have you lived in Ukraine over the last decade? Have you experienced the divide between east and west? Do you know the desires of the people there in both segregated parts? My guess so far is no, and then even if you have lived there, can you honestly, honestly declare that you speak for all Ukrainians? I know for damn certain I don't speak for the people of my entire country, the city I live in or even the town for that matter.

I feel sorry for Ukrainians on all sides of the fence. It's a horrible thing to witness, but the most sickening part of it all is the political game of chess that's going on over the situation which ultimately caused the whole thing. However whilst its important to understand the emotional and traumatic aspects of what's going on in the personal lives of the people living there, allowing that same emotion to rule on your decisions is stupid because it's much deeper than that, it's not a black and white situation, it's many shades of grey and calling one side evil over another is not going to get anyone anywhere because the world doesn't work like that. If you actually took an unbiased view across history in the region (even recent history) you'd be able to see it.
 
Zethor said:
I may be biased but I also have a better understanding of the situation because I've lived through something very similar, albeit deadlier as it was the military that got the order to fire at will at protesters rather than the police.
Click to expand...

That doesn't give you a better understanding, just additional bias.


Zethor said:
There is no excuse for using live ammunition against protesting crowds
Click to expand...

When their throwing bricks, pipes, bombs, etc at the police. There is. Use of potentially deadly force is not peaceful protesting, if somebody walked into the actual police station and started lobbing moletovs around nobody would try and defend them, yet because it's done in a mob for a cause it's all fine because their "protesting".

Seriously the protesting card is so overused these days it's comical. Libyan rebels mass murdering pro Gadaffi civilians is fine but any government response is a shocking attack on "protesters". Syrian rebels hacking up Jewish children and decapitating Christians is fine but pro-Assad forces shooting (at people with AK47's) is a shocking attack on "protesters".

You take part in an armed mob attempting to inflict death and damage, even if your intentions are peaceful, you risk something bad happening, simple as.


Thompson_NCL said:
Putin is actually the loser in this scenario. This time last year, The Ukraine was a Russian puppet, but it's now slipped his grasp. The very best he can hope to achieve is to limit his losses to just Western Ukraine. More likely he's going to lose everything but the Crimea, which may become an independent state or be annexed.
Click to expand...

He gets to keep Crimea, and he no longer has to subsidise Ukraine's energy costs, which he supplies, win win.
 
Last edited:
ubersonic said:
He gets to keep Crimea, and he no longer has to subsidise Ukraine's energy costs, which he supplies, win win.
Click to expand...

That is not a victory if you understand Russian strategic thinking for the last 300 years. Russia has always been about using Eastern Europe as a buffer between it and Western powers. Now that Ukraine has slipped the net, NATO is going to literally be on the doorstep, the buffer is gone.

Only Belarus remains under Russian thumbs, and there is no guarantee it will last if Lukashenko pops his clogs.

Honestly, I cannot fathom how anyone who understands the broader strategic thinking can perceive this as any kind of victory for Russia. They lost it the moment Yakky fled the country.
 
It's a little sensationalist I know, but some of the similarities of these events and Europe in the 1930s have just occurred to me.

What the appeasers said in the 30s about the Rhineland and Sudetenland are also being applied today.

It's easy to dismiss Crimea because of it's largely Russian population and support for Russia. But isn't quite an important principle at risk here?

It's a slippery slope.
 
Last edited:
Stretch said:
It's a little sensationalist I know, but some of the similarities of these events and Europe in the 1930s have just occurred to me.

What the appeasers said in the 30s about the Rhineland and Sudetenland are also being applied today.

It's easy to dismiss Crimea because of it's largely Russian population and support for Russia. But isn't quite an important principle at risk here?

It's a slippery slope.
Click to expand...

I was saying how surprised I was that nobody had yet compared Putin to Hitler on these forums yet. However, you have just done it.

Well done.

Like an overspill from Reddit.
 
Just heard on French TV, the IMF have put forward proposals for the loans. Ukraine already has been given $4Bn previously by the IMF. They want privatisation of oil and gas industries, cut back on pensions and welfare and a 15% cut in state spending.
Bye, bye all Soviet era industries. Hello mass unemployment. They will get to know what Greece went through.
 
Thompson_NCL said:
That is not a victory if you understand Russian strategic thinking for the last 300 years. Russia has always been about using Eastern Europe as a buffer between it and Western powers. Now that Ukraine has slipped the net, NATO is going to literally be on the doorstep, the buffer is gone.

Only Belarus remains under Russian thumbs, and there is no guarantee it will last if Lukashenko pops his clogs.

Honestly, I cannot fathom how anyone who understands the broader strategic thinking can perceive this as any kind of victory for Russia. They lost it the moment Yakky fled the country.
Click to expand...

Its exactly that Putin has been attempting to rebuild that buffer, and that the Ukranian revolt has broght that process to a screeching halt, that has annoyed him so much. NATO long ago agreed that they would not admit Ukraine, and it has long been western thinking that in no way should NATO buffer Russia (with guarantees) that makes this all he more surprising.

The Russian victory in this context is exactly as was said before, they now have a permanent militarised presence in south Ukraine to guarantee the non-intervention of NATO at a time when the extension of the Sevastapol lease had been renewed by the same guy who has now been deposed - with much criticism at the time from the opposition now in power.

You have to say, these motivations are so transparent how can anyone not see them? The answer is, Putin doesnt care if they are. Syria showed him that the US and the West have no appetite for confrontation and this emboldened him to do exactly as he pleases. Now he can propose dialogue and hammer out a deal to keep the gains he has already made. Wher was he a week ago? Staring down the barrel. Now he's holding the gun. Clever chap really.
 
Devlish said:
Syria showed him that the US and the West have no appetite for confrontation and this emboldened him to do exactly as he pleases. Now he can propose dialogue and hammer out a deal to keep the gains he has already made. Wher was he a week ago? Staring down the barrel. Now he's holding the gun. Clever chap really.
Click to expand...
Is that really what happened though? Is it not the case that the US and Europe have too much appetite for destruction and bending of international rules that has given him the freedom to do exactly the same?

I don't think one moment that the west's aggressive war antics over the last few decades have been reason for him holding back. I think he's not done anything like this simply because he's had no reason to. I distinctly remember Putin losing his **** during the Libya fiasco when the UN allowed western powers to use military force on the promise of targeting only military installations, but then went on to bomb palaces, historic monuments, civilian areas, and sent in undercover agents to bring blood thirsty mobs in to Gaddafi's location where they beat and publicly executed him without trial. There's a video of Putin somewhere promising to never again allow that to happen. Hence Russia's leading stance on keeping the west out of Syria.

Now that the EU is pushing towards his homeland, he's securing his assets without any hesitation simply because the west have given him permission to do by taking their example. The west in this whole situation can't come out in anyother way without being extremely hypocritical.
 
eggyoke said:
Is that really what happened though? Is it not the case that the US and Europe have too much appetite for destruction and bending of international rules that has given him the freedom to do exactly the same?

I don't think one moment that the west's aggressive war antics over the last few decades have been reason for him holding back. I think he's not done anything like this simply because he's had no reason to. I distinctly remember Putin losing his **** during the Libya fiasco when the UN allowed western powers to use military force on the promise of targeting only military installations, but then went on to bomb palaces, historic monuments, civilian areas, and sent in undercover agents to bring blood thirsty mobs in to Gaddafi's location where they beat and publicly executed him without trial. There's a video of Putin somewhere promising to never again allow that to happen. Hence Russia's leading stance on keeping the west out of Syria.

Now that the EU is pushing towards his homeland, he's securing his assets without any hesitation simply because the west have given him permission to do by taking their example. The west in this whole situation can't come out in anyother way without being extremely hypocritical.
Click to expand...

Putin... is that you?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom