Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

Status
Not open for further replies.
When you look at the actual breakdown. it makes a bit more sense. A lot of them like the S300/400, Kinzhal/iskander, Ukraine only really have the one capability to deal with those, Patriot, and they only have what we are lead to believe, 3 full systems. Therefore sadly coverage for those will be relatively small compared to the size of Ukraine and missiles are not an unlimited commodity. The missiles/drones that the other SHORAD/MANPAD/AAA can handle are still very good hit rates.
18/24 = Kh-101/555 cruise missiles
0/4 = Dagger missiles
0/8 = Kh-22/32 missiles
0/6 = ballistic "Iskanders"
0/7 = S-300/400 missiles
0/2 = Kh-31P missiles.
8/8 = Shahid drones
 
When you look at the actual breakdown. it makes a bit more sense. A lot of them like the S300/400, Kinzhal/iskander, Ukraine only really have the one capability to deal with those, Patriot, and they only have what we are lead to believe, 3 full systems. Therefore sadly coverage for those will be relatively small compared to the size of Ukraine and missiles are not an unlimited commodity. The missiles/drones that the other SHORAD/MANPAD/AAA can handle are still very good hit rates.


I’d expect a drone attack on a target, that after interception, escalates in proportion to the value of the target.

Also “launched” doesn’t mean a effective hit/expected damage to the intended target.
Failed terminal phases would count as launched but not “shot down”?
 
Last edited:
Ignores pages of replies from people, to immediately defend a Russian position xD.

Are you this nit picky about anything else, you never seem to be.

Russia doesn't have a position, this is Boris Yeltsin speaking to Bill Clinton about a missile defense treaty back in the 90s. I find this historical stuff really interesting personally, but it's not how it's being framed on Twitter and on here, nor is it relevant to the current war.
 
Seems Bill Clinton managed to reassure Yeltsin that their defence system wasn't targeted at Russian ICBMs, nor would it be effective against them. They had quite a good working relationship based on that memo.

Starwars was scrapped in 93, the true thawing of the cold war

 
This was in the context of the planned missile defense system though which this screenshot cuts off, I just sat and read all the memo.

The context is broader than that, but even if it hadn't been, it still doesn't change the meaning and intent of Yeltsin's demand. He wants Europe, and his argument is that Russia should be allowed to have Europe, because she is (a) European, and (b) powerful enough to protect the continent from future threats.

Yeltsin is so convinced this is a reasonable position that he tells Clinton the US can have all the other states, and protect them. He considers this a legitimate and entirely reasonable proposal.

President Yeltsin: Bill, Bill. I got your note. It went into all these things in incredible detail. I read it and I was satisfied. I've not yet ceased to believe in you. I ask you one thing. Just give Europe to Russia. The U.S. is not in Europe. Europe should be the business of Europeans. Russia is half European and half Asian.

The President:
So you want Asia too?

President Yeltsin: Sure, sure. Bill. Eventually, we will have to agree on all of this.

The President: I don't think the Europeans would like this very much.

Not all. But I am a European. I live in Moscow. Moscow is in Europe and I like it. You can take all the other states and provide security to them. I will take Europe and provide them security. Well, not I. Russia will.

Yeltsin also admits that Russia wants Asia, on the grounds that 'Russia is half European and half Asian.' He sees Russia's acquisition of Europe and Asia as inevitable, telling Clinton 'Eventually we will have to agree on all of this.'

Note that Clinton says 'I don't think the Europeans would like this very much.' Does he mean the Europeans would not like Russia providing security for them with a missile shield? Of course not, that wouldn't make any sense.

He means the Europeans would not like being absorbed into Russia's sphere of influence. They know what happened to the Soviet vassal states, and they don't want a return to those years.

There is no way to read the words 'Just give Europe to Russia' and 'I will take Europe' as 'I just want a missile defence system, it's no big deal.' The same applies to his intentions for Asia. Clinton understands this perfectly well, as his reply shows.

The broader context of the discussion is Yeltsin's concerns about foreign intervention in his war on Chechnya, which he sees as a uniquely European issue that non-Europeans should stay out of. This is such a critical issue for Yeltsin that he raises it immediately at the start of their meeting:

President Yeltsin: Well, Bill, what about those camps here in Turkey that are preparing troops to go into Chechnya? Aren't you in charge of those? I have the details. Minister Ivanov, give me the map. I want to show you where the mercenarie sare being trained and then being sent into Chechnya. They are armed to the teeth.

(Note: Yeltsin pulls out map of Turkey and circulates it.).

Bill, this is your fault. I told Demirel yesterday thatI will send the head of the SRV tomorrow and we will show him where the camps are located. These are not state sanctioned camps. They are sponsored by NGOs and religious organizations. But let me tell you if this were in Russia and there were but one camp, I would throw them all out and put the bandits in the electric chair.

This is how the National Security Archive describes the entire exchange:

This amazing conversation is the last meeting Clinton has with Yeltsin as president of Russia. It was not clear up to the last moment whether, because of his health, Yeltsin was going to make it to the summit of OSCE in Istanbul, to sign the adapted Conventional Forces Treaty.

In this memcon, Yeltsin is emotional and expansive, even somewhat unstable, taking turns blasting Clinton for his "support" for Chechen terrorist organizations and praising him as a friend and a partner.

He tells Clinton to "just give Europe to Russia," because Russia is in Europe and the United States is not. The Russian president says, "You can take all the other states and provide security to them. I will take Europe and provide them security."

He brags about his successes in routing terrorists in Dagestan and speaks the tough language that later comes to be associated with Putin, such as his intention to "put the bandits in the electric chair."

Yeltsin is confused by what exactly he has signed and sent to Duma, but he promises to end the conflict in Chechnya and to sign the CFE treaty.

So it's not difficult to understand why this memo was classified as 'Secret', because its contents is politically explosive. You can't hand wave this and pretend Yeltsin meant something entirely different.
 
Last edited:
The context is broader than that, but even if it hadn't been, it still doesn't change the meaning and intent of Yeltsin's demand. He wants Europe, and his argument is that Russia should be allowed to have Europe, because she is (a) European, and (b) powerful enough to protect the continent from future threats.

Yeltsin is so convinced this is a reasonable position that he tells Clinton the US can have all the other states, and protect them. He considers this a legitimate and entirely reasonable proposal.



Yeltsin also admits that Russia wants Asia, on the grounds that 'Russia is half European and half Asian.' He sees Russia's acquisition of Europe and Asia as inevitable, telling Clinton 'Eventually we will have to agree on all of this.'

Note that Clinton says 'I don't think the Europeans would like this very much.' Does he mean the Europeans would not like Russia providing security for them with a missile shield? Of course not, that wouldn't make any sense.

He means the Europeans would not like being absorbed into Russia's sphere of influence. They know what happened to the Soviet vassal states, and they don't want a return to those years.

There is no way to read the words 'Just give Europe to Russia' and 'I will take Europe' as 'I just want a missile defence system, it's no big deal.' The same applies to his intentions for Asia. Clinton understands this perfectly well, as his reply shows.

The broader context of the discussion is Yeltsin's concerns about foreign intervention in his war on Chechnya, which he sees as a uniquely European issue that non-Europeans should stay out of. This is such a critical issue for Yeltsin that he raises it immediately at the start of their meeting:



This is how the National Security Archive describes the entire exchange:



So it's not difficult to understand why this memo was classified as 'Secret', because its contents is politically explosive. You can't hand wave this and pretend Yeltsin meant something entirely different.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. But it seems unlikely that your connection with Russian leaders is in the same league as Roar87...
 
35k deployed internally in Russia is 35K fewer in Ukraine. I wonder how many partisans they're chasing, but my guess is less than a thousand so that's a very appealing ratio of of manpower tied up chasing their tails.

Probably just the ones around his nephews house’s. Cue Benny Hill music.
 
The context is broader than that, but even if it hadn't been, it still doesn't change the meaning and intent of Yeltsin's demand. He wants Europe, and his argument is that Russia should be allowed to have Europe, because she is (a) European, and (b) powerful enough to protect the continent from future threats.

Yeltsin is so convinced this is a reasonable position that he tells Clinton the US can have all the other states, and protect them. He considers this a legitimate and entirely reasonable proposal.



Yeltsin also admits that Russia wants Asia, on the grounds that 'Russia is half European and half Asian.' He sees Russia's acquisition of Europe and Asia as inevitable, telling Clinton 'Eventually we will have to agree on all of this.'

Note that Clinton says 'I don't think the Europeans would like this very much.' Does he mean the Europeans would not like Russia providing security for them with a missile shield? Of course not, that wouldn't make any sense.

He means the Europeans would not like being absorbed into Russia's sphere of influence. They know what happened to the Soviet vassal states, and they don't want a return to those years.

There is no way to read the words 'Just give Europe to Russia' and 'I will take Europe' as 'I just want a missile defence system, it's no big deal.' The same applies to his intentions for Asia. Clinton understands this perfectly well, as his reply shows.

The broader context of the discussion is Yeltsin's concerns about foreign intervention in his war on Chechnya, which he sees as a uniquely European issue that non-Europeans should stay out of. This is such a critical issue for Yeltsin that he raises it immediately at the start of their meeting:



This is how the National Security Archive describes the entire exchange:



So it's not difficult to understand why this memo was classified as 'Secret', because its contents is politically explosive. You can't hand wave this and pretend Yeltsin meant something entirely different.

Russia has always been imperialistic, even when it was the USSR. Nothing has changed and it still wants its empire back.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom