Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[Zethor]

Sigh, after I linked you the wiki page you shoot off with black and white fallacy straight away. Nowhere did I say you imply US is a saint, nor did I claim that you said US does everything right.

What you did is present two cherry picked cases of well prosperous countries and linked their success to the existence of military bases there. I presented additional information that renders your point false. Nothing more, nothing less.

I wasn't even talking about military bases and when you brought them up, I mentioned South Korea which you conveniently ignored.

The US has countries under its sphere of influence that are doing well, it also has countries that are doing horribly. I've never claimed otherwise.

Russia has a historical trail of destruction and not much else, as well as being a beacon of corruption and abuse itself. You cannot even begin to compare these two countries, that's all I'm saying. I'm not interested in your attempts to twist parts of my argument nor am I interested in your issues/frustration you have toward the US.

 

[The Running Man]

it's really not.

any russian intervention in Ukraine would be no different to our intervention in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Same goal - not completely annexing the country, only ensuring that whichever party takes power is friendly to the party instigating the regime change.

Russia are no more wrong here than we were.

Unless we're talking about different ideologically - but that difference is the old east / west capitalist / socialist divide and nobody would claim they are the same in that respect.

Not quite as we didn't intend to take over and keep part of Afghanistan or iraq. Whereas russia might want to keep the Crimea region.

 

[Fr0dders]

I wasn't even talking about military bases and when you brought them up, I mentioned South Korea which you conveniently ignored.

The US has countries under its sphere of influence that are doing well, it also has countries that are doing horribly. I've never claimed otherwise.

Russia has a historical trail of destruction and not much else, as well as being a beacon of corruption and abuse itself. You cannot even begin to compare these two countries, that's all I'm saying. I'm not interested in your attempts to twist parts of my argument nor am I interested in your issues/frustration you have toward the US.

You really are beyond hope if you've been brainwashed into thinking that our views are any more valid than theirs.

You say corruption is a bad thing, why ? because you're a westerner brought up to believe that. Its a cultural difference and you need to think outside the brainwashing of the wester media. Our view that corruption is wrong is no more valid than their belief that its normal and just the way things get done.

You only believe it to be more valid because you're a westerner. Conversely, the russian's think their view is more valid for the same reason - because its what they've been brought up to believe is right.

 

[The Running Man]

You really are beyond hope if you've been brainwashed into thinking that our views are any more valid than theirs.

You say corruption is a bad thing, why ? because you're a westerner brought up to believe that. Its a cultural difference and you need to think outside the brainwashing of the wester media. Our view that corruption is wrong is no more valid than their belief that its normal and just the way things get done.

You only believe it to be more valid because you're a westerner. Conversely, the russian's think their view is more valid for the same reason - because its what they've been brought up to believe is right.

You really think that if you ask a few Ukrainians or russians on the street (not the connected rich who utilise the corruption) whether they think corruption is better than no corruption I doubt many would prefer corruption...

The east don't like it but can't do much about it because they live in corrupt police states..

 

[Nerusy]

I wasn't even talking about military bases and when you brought them up, I mentioned South Korea which you conveniently ignored.

The difference between the US and Russia is the difference between South Korea and North Korea. Or the difference between West Germany and East Germany. Or the difference between Poland and Belarus. You are who your friends are.

The US has bases in Japan and Germany - they are flourishing democracies.
Russia has bases in Moldova and Ukraine - they are the worst developed countries in Europe.

Keep sprouting ignorant drivel tho.

You brought them up first, I was merely pointing out your false logic.

The US has countries under its sphere of influence that are doing well, it also has countries that are doing horribly. I've never claimed otherwise.

Russia has a historical trail of destruction and not much else, as well as being a beacon of corruption and abuse itself. You cannot even begin to compare these two countries, that's all I'm saying. I'm not interested in your attempts to twist parts of my argument nor am I interested in your issues/frustration you have toward the US.

Once again I am not arguing about this, why do you keep forcing false dilemma? I never compared Russia to US, once again, stop using black and white logical fallacy and stop using strawman, I repeat once again:

What you did is present two cherry picked cases of well prosperous countries and linked their success to the existence of military bases there. I presented additional information that renders your point false. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also, Zathor, you might be confusing me with mmj_uk hence all the nonsense you directed at me, is that the case?

 

[Zethor]

it's really not.

any russian intervention in Ukraine would be no different to our intervention in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Same goal - not completely annexing the country, only ensuring that whichever party takes power is friendly to the party instigating the regime change.

Russia are no more wrong here than we were.

Unless we're talking about different ideologically - but that difference is the old east / west capitalist / socialist divide and nobody would claim they are the same in that respect.

If Russia is no more wrong than we are, why don't you move to Russia or one of its satellites? If they are the same, it shouldn't be an issue, right?

mmj_uk was sprouting general, stupid claims about the US and I intervened.

There's so much hate for the US here and so much love for Putin, it feels like the Twilight Zone sometimes. It's massive case of spoilt adults who have been having it too good their whole lives. Instead of being grateful that you live in Western countries thereby having living stards far superior than 6b+ people, you make false equivalents and compare the most advanced societies on this planet with autocratic shtholes like Russia.

 

[Jono8]

Whereas russia might want to keep the Crimea region.

Which Putin specifically said was not happening. Russia will do the same as the west has done with Iraq/afghanistan

 

[Zethor]

You brought them up first, I was merely pointing out your false logic.

Once again I am not arguing about this, why do you keep forcing false dilemma? I never compared Russia to US, once again, stop using black and white logical fallacy and stop using strawman, I repeat once again:

Also, Zathor, you might be confusing me with mmj_uk hence all the nonsense you directed at me, is that the case?

I didn't mention the American bases because I considered them the reason why Japan and Germany are flourishing, I mentioned them to stress out the differences between American and Russian zones of influence. And yes, it was mmj_uk who said the US and Russia are the same so the reply was aimed at him.

The USA is a lot better at propaganda that's all, but if you look at a map and who was involved in foreign wars over the past century, it's clear which country is empire building, the USA probably has more bases surrounding Russia than Russia has foreign bases.

I mean look at this drivel. A lot better at propaganda? As he types on a PC probably designed in the US and running an American operating system. How can one complain America has more bases surrounding Russia than Russia has foreign bases... As opposed to what? Having an equal amount of bases like they did 25 years ago when the USSR kept dozens of millions in the Dark Ages?

 

[The Running Man]

Which Putin specifically said was not happening. Russia will do the same as the west has done with Iraq/afghanistan

It's giving that much credibility to Putin that most people won't do .

I'm not sure if he will or if he won't. I think his nose got put out of joint over Syria, one of his major customers who we tried to neuter and overthrow and this is a chance to put the ball back in the west's court n.

 

[Fr0dders]

If Russia is no more wrong than we are, why don't you move to Russia or one of its satellites? If they are the same, it shouldn't be an issue, right?

mmj_uk was sprouting general, stupid claims about the US and I intervened.

There's so much hate for the US here and so much love for Putin, it feels like the Twilight Zone sometimes. It's massive case of spoilt adults who have been having it too good their whole lives. Instead of being grateful that you live in Western countries thereby having living stards far superior than 6b+ people, you make false equivalents and compare the most advanced societies on this planet with autocratic shtholes like Russia.

You really have been brainwashed haven't you. Do you really think its that black and white ?

You really think that if you ask a few Ukrainians or russians on the street (not the connected rich who utilise the corruption) whether they think corruption is better than no corruption I doubt many would prefer corruption...

The east don't like it but can't do much about it because they live in corrupt police states..

I suspect most russians and people from the former soviet block countries just see it as a fact of life and don't give it a second thought.

 

[Nerusy]

I didn't mention the American bases because I considered them the reason why Japan and Germany are flourishing.

The US has bases in Japan and Germany - they are flourishing democracies

Actually you did imply as can be see from this quote, I already provided proof why that statement is false, presence of foreign military bases does not have an effect on level of democracy or prosperity like you claim. If of course you accept that Japan and Germany success has nothing to do with bases being there, then we're okay.

And yes, it was mmj_uk who said the US and Russia are the same so the reply was aimed at him.

Finally, you kept accusing me of argument I never initiated and directing absolute nonsense, got to keep up on who you're replying to broski

 

[Zethor]

You really have been brainwashed haven't you. Do you really think its that black and white ?

By whom have I been brainwashed? Let me guess, the US controlled media and the Illuminati?

Democracy, freedom, productivity = good.
Corruption, abuse, authoritarianism = bad.

American stands for the first, although they often get it wrong, which doesn't erase the instances when they get it right. Russia stands for the latter. It's only a matter of time before it collapses on itself, like it did before, and it will continue to do so until the Russian people feel the true taste of democracy and freedom.

It is that black and white, yes.

Actually you did imply as can be see from this quote, I already provided proof why that statement is false, presence of foreign military bases does not have an effect on level of democracy or prosperity like you claim. If of course you accept that Japan and Germany success has nothing to do with bases being there, then we're okay.

The Germans and the Japanse would probably prosper on the surface of the Moon if they had to so yes, military bases have nothing to do with it.

 

[Tuppy_Glossop]

Great work, guys Popcorn, anyone ?

 

[Blackjack Davy]

You have to say, these motivations are so transparent how can anyone not see them? The answer is, Putin doesnt care if they are. Syria showed him that the US and the West have no appetite for confrontation and this emboldened him to do exactly as he pleases. Now he can propose dialogue and hammer out a deal to keep the gains he has already made. Wher was he a week ago? Staring down the barrel. Now he's holding the gun. Clever chap really.

The ironic thing with the increasingly heated rhetoric from Washington complaining about invasion of sovereign states (sure like thats never happened where the US's interests are threatened) is that if the people of eastern Ukraine were put to a referendum on voting whether to join Kiev and the EU or whether to join Russia and Putin it'd almost certainly vote for Russia.

So the point is moot somewhat, its simply that the US annoyed at Russia acting unilaterally.

 

[Domo]

Something in the news re Russia test firing an ICBM? How often are ICBMs tested anyway? Also something about warning shots being fired by the Russians today. Definitely getting heated.

 

[m4rk84]

The ironic thing with the increasingly heated rhetoric from Washington complaining about invasion of sovereign states (sure like thats never happened where the US's interests are threatened) is that if the people of eastern Ukraine were put to a referendum on voting whether to join Kiev and the EU or whether to join Russia and Putin it'd almost certainly vote for Russia.

So the point is moot somewhat, its simply that the US annoyed at Russia acting unilaterally.

It's very far from black and white who would win. Crimea is very pro-russian right now yes however it's impossible to say how a fair referendum would have worked before any of this mess, Crimea was pretty far from 100% pro-Russia before all this.

If you look at Russia's last few 'democratic' votes and see Putin's pretty long list of corrupt elections and the things that have happened to his opposition during his time in power then it's pretty obvious that a Russian controlled Crimea will vote in favour of Russia and it will be impossible to tell how legitimate the vote is.

 

[Nerusy]

Something in the news re Russia test firing an ICBM? How often are ICBMs tested anyway? Also something about warning shots being fired by the Russians today. Definitely getting heated.

http://www.trust.org/item/20140304193150-ty5lp

Consistently often, was planned and notified well before Crimea crisis.

All these military games, military movements near border including Poland is just normal procedure in a volatile region, a lot of people seem to be scared which is quite absurd.

Warning shots were fired but things are not getting heated, was a cheeky attempt by Ukrainian 300 soldiers to gain some ground and get their Belbek airbase back, which gone nowhere so they went back.

Watching reports from Crimea itself everybody is reporting very calm environment. Ukrainian and Russian solders calmly chatting as if they're buddies. General rhetoric from Ukrainian military commanders is that things are calm and it's now entirely up to "politicians". So I very much doubt things are going to heat up from this point but of course things can rapidly change.

Edit:
Quite interesting video of the warning shot incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRvdmmwoeQE

Interestingly enough western media portrayed the even much more calm and civil than it actually was even though they were present during the whole ordeal. Western sources I read also never showed Ukrainian soldiers say the following (which this video does show):
"Shoot B****"
"You're on live TV"
"America is with us"

 

[Domo]

So do you think the US might be overreacting with it's measures? Most recently the suspending of all military ties with Russia and Kerry earlier suggesting Russia is isolated politically by the US and its allies?
I don't think the rhetoric coming out of the US is particularly helpful, and it might quickly undo years of relationship building which is disappointing.

 

[Fr0dders]

Democracy, freedom, productivity = good.
Corruption, abuse, authoritarianism = bad.

ok I'm out.

 

[Nerusy]

So do you think the US might be overreacting with it's measures? Most recently the suspending of all military ties with Russia and Kerry earlier suggesting Russia is isolated politically by the US and its allies?
I don't think the rhetoric coming out of the US is particularly helpful, and it might quickly undo years of relationship building which is disappointing.

Overreacting? Hard to say. According to USA Russia invaded Ukraine, obviously Russia claims it's not an invasion but rather answer to the plea for help by Crimean people and government but as USA views this as invasion then the measures USA is taking seem to be fairly appropriate. edit appropriate for US obviously.

Edit Actually scratch all that I have not got a clue if it's appropriate or not.