Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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so that state department phone call has them (USA) saying who they want as pm of ukraine then a week later, oh look he's now pm with UN support. this totally stinks.

i don't agree russia should have unmarked soilders there, but i can't blame em for it.

saw a clip of kerry in kiev, a ukraine marked soilder want's a handsheke and welcomes him, with a usa accent
 
Fr0dders said:
You really are beyond hope if you've been brainwashed into thinking that our views are any more valid than theirs.

You say corruption is a bad thing, why ? because you're a westerner brought up to believe that. Its a cultural difference and you need to think outside the brainwashing of the wester media. Our view that corruption is wrong is no more valid than their belief that its normal and just the way things get done.

You only believe it to be more valid because you're a westerner. Conversely, the russian's think their view is more valid for the same reason - because its what they've been brought up to believe is right.
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Im confused as to if your serious or simply trolling, hopefully the latter because i cant imagine someone could actually believe what you have written lol. So let me get this right your saying because the east is corrupt and has been for almost, well, forever that its ok and its part of their culture? if thats the case then you obvously thought slavery was ok because it was part of culture 200 years ago? surely you cant think that so im guessing your trolling.

ALso from what i can gather in Syria its own people rose up because they were sick of being rules by a dictator, during their protests they asked for help from other coutries as they were being killed, Russia (Putin) put a stop to that because he was friends with the dictator, which inturn prolonged the conflict and caused millions to flee their own country. But then again its their culture so its ok am i right? high 5 for culture.

Can you explain what happened in Georgia? Or was that ok because its russian culture to invade a country fighting for for democracy?

As your obviously an avid fan of Putin and russias "culture" so why are you still in the uk? Russia and its colonies would obviously be better for you, then again they dont have nhs, benefits, regular elections and other benefits that come with living in a democracy you so obviously hate lol you can get 1 way flights to moscow pretty cheap these days
 
The Running Man said:
You really think that if you ask a few Ukrainians or russians on the street (not the connected rich who utilise the corruption) whether they think corruption is better than no corruption I doubt many would prefer corruption...
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I think the issue is Russian corruption vs American corruption, as it's just as rife with both countries.
 
Domo said:
So do you think the US might be overreacting with it's measures? Most recently the suspending of all military ties with Russia and Kerry earlier suggesting Russia is isolated politically by the US and its allies?
I don't think the rhetoric coming out of the US is particularly helpful, and it might quickly undo years of relationship building which is disappointing.
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Yeah but where has years of relationship building with Russia got us? The point of relationship building is to build up trust with another country so they don't end up doing things like surprise invasions of other countries. The relationship has to work both ways.
 
Nerusy said:
http://www.trust.org/item/20140304193150-ty5lp

Consistently often, was planned and notified well before Crimea crisis.

All these military games, military movements near border including Poland is just normal procedure in a volatile region, a lot of people seem to be scared which is quite absurd.

Warning shots were fired but things are not getting heated, was a cheeky attempt by Ukrainian 300 soldiers to gain some ground and get their Belbek airbase back, which gone nowhere so they went back.

Watching reports from Crimea itself everybody is reporting very calm environment. Ukrainian and Russian solders calmly chatting as if they're buddies. General rhetoric from Ukrainian military commanders is that things are calm and it's now entirely up to "politicians". So I very much doubt things are going to heat up from this point but of course things can rapidly change.

Edit:
Quite interesting video of the warning shot incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRvdmmwoeQE

Interestingly enough western media portrayed the even much more calm and civil than it actually was even though they were present during the whole ordeal. Western sources I read also never showed Ukrainian soldiers say the following (which this video does show):
"Shoot B****"
"You're on live TV"
"America is with us"
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Im not quite following your reasoning. Surely you can see that military wargames on the border, immeduately after the russians have marched into crimea (or rather marched out of sevastapol) as well as rumblings about doing the same thing to cities in eastern ukrane is/was a real cause for concern? How would that be construed as anything other than threatening.

The 300 unarmed ukranians (and some families) trying to get into their own base can hardly be seen as 'cheeky'. And they didnt look very buddy like when they were having AK47s pointed at them. The reports i saw showed pro russian milita trying to cut off water and electricity to ukrainian bases and lots of shouting. Didnt seem very calm. The fact that russia is issuing passports to any of the recently disbanded riot police resoonsible for the killings in Kiev who turn up in crimea, is about in line with theiir generally belligerent attitude.

The fact is, the region is still tense but for the most part its between people who have been living together for years. Thats probably the best hope the shooting wont start, not because of any acceptance of the russian action, but theres obviously lots of people there coming in from outside. The russians know they can starve out the army there, so when that happens who knows. Emphasis now will be on the diplomatic, sanctions etc.
 
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Devlish said:
For instance, why do you think we will need Putins help one day and why do you think he would give it to us? Syria is a perfect example of that not happening.
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France does the same thing when America wants regime change in countries it's selling French reactors to. Nothing new about being awkward if you have a strategic or economic interest in a country.

Russia is also right about Syria, why are we arbitrarily supporting a side that commits daily atrocities and wants a new Islamic state? That's going to be as stable and pro west as North Korea.
I don't know what Russia's strategy or actual interests are, but not picking the side with all the homicidal nutjobs seems reasonable?

As for throwing our weight around concerning Ukraine, it seems reasonable that Putin will return the favour over some other incident with the west, maybe over China or South Korea or Japan. I'm not pretending to be a Wikipedia expert here, but I don't get why we should jump into bed with everyone wanting a civil war. Is this 'hug a freedom fighter' month or something?

Standing on the sidelines and tutting a bit seems a better approach than frothing at the mouth and soundbiting over new Russian Imperialism.



& please read a few of Sliver's previous trolls before leaping to defend him, he appears to have some kind of issue with me personally :confused: :(
 
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Blackjack Davy said:
The ironic thing with the increasingly heated rhetoric from Washington complaining about invasion of sovereign states (sure like thats never happened where the US's interests are threatened) is that if the people of eastern Ukraine were put to a referendum on voting whether to join Kiev and the EU or whether to join Russia and Putin it'd almost certainly vote for Russia.

So the point is moot somewhat, its simply that the US annoyed at Russia acting unilaterally.
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Russian speakers are a minority in the East, so why would you think they'd 'almost certainly' want to join Russia? It's only Crimea where they are a regional majority.
 
Russians using the same actress to play five different people lol

Bh8LOZTCIAAwO0p.jpg:large
 
Devlish said:
Im not quite following your reasoning. Surely you can see that military wargames on the border, immeduately after the russians have marched into crimea (or rather marched out of sevastapol) as well as rumblings about doing the same thing to cities in eastern ukrane is/was a real cause for concern? How would that be construed as anything other than threatening.
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Because it was scheduled months ago, I'm not saying it shouldn't have been cancelled but if the US think it's okay to run combat drills along the NK border at times of heightened tension then they can't really critisise, pot and kettle.


Devlish said:
And they didnt look very buddy like when they were having AK47s pointed at them.
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I really really hate to be that guy, but they have AK-74M rifles, they're actually quite different to 47's although they look quit similar to the untrained eye (imagine if the M16 and AK-47 mated, that's pretty much an AK-74M).


Devlish said:
The fact is, the region is still tense but for the most part its between people who have been living together for years. Thats probably the best hope the shooting wont start, not because of any acceptance of the russian action, but theres obviously lots of people there coming in from outside. The russians know they can starve out the army there, so when that happens who knows. Emphasis now will be on the diplomatic, sanctions etc.
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I don't really think Russia will do anything bad in Crimea, because at the end of the day they are kind of right in what their doing, ~60% of the population is ethnic Russia compared to ~25% Ukrainian so it's right that Crimea is not subjugated to Ukraine any longer. And added to that ~12% of the population are Muslim, and Putin really really really will not want another Afghanistan lol (the USSR's Vietnam).
 
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Devlish said:
Im not quite following your reasoning. Surely you can see that military wargames on the border, immeduately after the russians have marched into crimea (or rather marched out of sevastapol) as well as rumblings about doing the same thing to cities in eastern ukrane is/was a real cause for concern? How would that be construed as anything other than threatening.

The 300 unarmed ukranians (and some families) trying to get into their own base can hardly be seen as 'cheeky'. And they didnt look very buddy like when they were having AK47s pointed at them. The reports i saw showed pro russian milita trying to cut off water and electricity to ukrainian bases and lots of shouting. Didnt seem very calm. The fact that russia is issuing passports to any of the recently disbanded riot police resoonsible for the killings in Kiev who turn up in crimea, is about in line with theiir generally belligerent attitude.

The fact is, the region is still tense but for the most part its between people who have been living together for years. Thats probably the best hope the shooting wont start, not because of any acceptance of the russian action, but theres obviously lots of people there coming in from outside. The russians know they can starve out the army there, so when that happens who knows. Emphasis now will be on the diplomatic, sanctions etc.
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I said wargames are and troop movement is fairly normal procedure, by the way Russian war game troops on the west border are finished so some forces went back others stayed at the border as they were before. You seem to misunderstand what I mean, my point was that things seems to have stabilised instead up heating up at this point.

Its cheecky because they clearly would not succeed, they knew it and they did it purely as a PR stunt for the media as could be see by Ukraine soldier rhetoric.

The question I was answering to was asking if things are heating up and as far as reports from the ground in Crimea are concerned they are not heating up.
 
Russia allowed to have 25,000 troops in Crimea since 1999... & other facts you may not know

So here are the facts, numbers, and details of this long-standing (but rarely cited) deal:
1) The Black Sea Fleet has been disputed between Russia and Ukraine since the collapse of the Soviet Union back in 1991.

2) In 1997, the sides finally managed to find common ground and signed three agreements determining the fate of the military bases and vessels in Crimea. Two years later, in 1999, the Russian and Ukrainian parliaments ratified them. Russia has received 81.7 percent of the fleet’s ships after paying the Ukrainian government a compensation of US$526.5 million.

3) Moscow also annually writes off $97.75 million of Kiev’s debt for the right to use Ukrainian waters and radio frequency resources, and for the environmental impact caused by the Black Sea Fleet’s operations.

4) According to the initial agreement, the Russian Black Sea Fleet was to stay in Crimea until 2017, but the deal was later prolonged for another 25 years.

5) The 1997 deal allows the Russian navy to have up to 25,000 troops, 24 artillery systems with a caliber smaller than 100 mm, 132 armored vehicles, and 22 military planes on Crimean territory.

6) In compliance with those accords, there are currently five Russian naval units stationed in the port city of Sevastopol in the Crimean peninsula:

- The 30th Surface Ship Division formed by the 11th Antisubmarine Ship Brigade, which includes the Black Sea Fleet’s flagship guard missile cruiser Moskva as well as Kerch, Ochakov, Smetlivy, Ladny, and Pytlivy vessels, and the 197th Landing Ship Brigade, consisting of seven large amphibious vessels;

- The 41st Missile Boat Brigade, which includes the 166th Fast Attack Craft Division, consisting of Bora and Samum hovercrafts as well as small missile ships Mirazh and Shtil, and 295th missile Boat Division;

- The 247th Separate Submarine Division, consisting of two diesel submarines – B-871 Alrosa and B-380 Svyatoy Knyaz Georgy;


- The 68th Harbor Defense Ship Brigade formed by the 400th Antisubmarine Ship Battalion of four vessels and 418 Mine Hunting Ship Division, which consist of four ships as well;

- The 422nd Separate Hydrographic Ship Division, which includes Cheleken, Stvor, Donuzlav and GS-402 survey vessels as well as a group of hydrographic boats.

7) Besides the naval units, Moscow also has two airbases in Crimea, which are situated in the towns of Kacha and Gvardeysky.

8) The Russian coastal forces in Ukraine consist of the 1096th Separate Anti-Aircraft Missile Regiment in Sevastopol and the 810th Marine Brigade, which hosts around 2,000 marines. (Several other coastal units of the Black Sea Fleet are located in Russia’s Krasnodar Region, including the 11th Separate Coastal Missile Brigade in Anapa, the 382th Separate Marine Battalion, and a naval reconnaissance station in Temryuk).
 
Regardless of what people believe from all the different spin coming from the super powers, at the end of the day it comes down to this question

If the Ukranian people ask for western help towards becoming a democracy, and to move away from Russian influence should we help them?

Forget everything else, surely its down to what ever the majority of people in the Ukraine want?
 
ubersonic said:
I really really hate to be that guy, but they have AK-74M rifles, they're actually quite different to 47's although they look quit similar to the untrained eye (imagine if the M16 and AK-47 mated, that's pretty much an AK-74M).
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I think youll find its the AKMS paratrooper variant with the folding stock. These were issued to the just kidding i'll take your word for it!

I am sort of trying to analyse why its being taken so seriously by the west and I suspect its because it harks back to old school russian reversal of political losses through military might. a lot of the structures that were there during the cold war to counteract this sort of behaviour have been substantially drawn down, which goes some way to explaining polands unease.

I would also like to think that theres an element here of not allowing the naturalisation process, or importing your citizens into a region under your control and therefore making it yours, China/Tibet for instance, because it encourages genocide. But thats probably not even a factor in the political game.
 
Devlish said:
I think youll find its the AKMS paratrooper variant with the folding stock. These were issued to the just kidding i'll take your word for it!

I am sort of trying to analyse why its being taken so seriously by the west and I suspect its because it harks back to old school russian reversal of political losses through military might. a lot of the structures that were there during the cold war to counteract this sort of behaviour have been substantially drawn down, which goes some way to explaining polands unease.

I would also like to think that theres an element here of not allowing the naturalisation process, or importing your citizens into a region under your control and therefore making it yours, China/Tibet for instance, because it encourages genocide. But thats probably not even a factor in the political game.
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Russia gave Ukraine the Crimiea, now they want it back? The people of Ukraine have asked for help from the West so should we turn our back on them? If the Falkland Islands were invaded by Argentina, and the poeple living there asked us to protect them should we turn our backs on them?
 
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