What do you think of the 4070Ti?

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Capitalism is about the individual's own margins. It's totally capitalistic for a consumer to think of their own margins by wanting to pay less.

It is socialism where we exist to prop up private foreign companies like charities especially foreign companies like Nvidia and AMD who get massive tax incentives from the US taxpayer already. Nvidia didn't pay any Federal taxes in 2018 for example:

These 91 companies paid no federal taxes in 2018

A new report from think tank says some of the biggest companies in the country had effective tax rates of 0% or less in 2018.

www.cnbc.com

In the USSR, consumers existed as charities to prop up companies and were forced to buy overpriced and subpar consumer products.

We as consumers don't exist as charities. Nvidia, Intel and AMD are not even British firms and hardly contribute to the UK tax base or economy. So for the poor techno socialists here whether they not enough profit that is not our problem. Other companies will eventually fill the void.

The techno socialists in this thread, if you are so religiously in love with foreign tech companies, donate money to them from bank accounts of you feel sorry for them.Don't expect others to care.

I think the key point you made here is that nobody is forced to buy the graphics cards.
If you want to buy one, buy one, if you don't want to buy one, don't.
It's a luxury item that you don't need. You're not entitled to have a top tier graphics card.

Sure, I'd like them to be cheaper too, but I'd also like things like cars and houses to be cheaper too. People just seem to have accepted that they're expensive and maybe that's what we'll have to do with GPUs too (for this generation at least).

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I think the key point you made here is that nobody is forced to buy the graphics cards.
If you want to buy one, buy one, if you don't want to buy one, don't.
It's a luxury item that you don't need. You're not entitled to have a top tier graphics card.

Sure, I'd like them to be cheaper too, but I'd also like things like cars and houses to be cheaper too. People just seem to have accepted that they're expensive and maybe that's what we'll have to do with GPUs too (for this generation at least).

But at the same time,this entitlement of PCMR enthusiasts,we NEED to just accept pricing and tactics is a nonsense.

It is our capitalistic right to complain,moan and criticise any privately owned company as we see fit,just like it is our democractic right to criticise any government or politician. In places like the USSR,could you criticise their consumer products,openly like this? I doubt it because you were meant to prop these companies up. PCMR gamers need to stop acting like we need to keep accepting rubbish practices. Rubbish practices lead to countries having Trabants for decades. Prices like this will cause PC gaming to start slowing down and being more dependent on consoles pushing technologies forward.

It is entitlement of any of these companies to expect consumers to act like socialists to prop their businesses up,especially during these telling times. None of us exist to prop up any of these companies and neither should we defend the poor practices of Nvidia,AMD or Intel. If they employed a lot of people here I might care a bit,but they don't.

Many here defended AMD jacking its Zen3 and Zen4 prices up,removing features,etc and tried to do the charity line too and I didn't put up with it either. None of these companies give a damn about you and by extension you shouldn't feel any loyalty towards them.People complained about Zen4 pricing,and sales were poor. Prices are now falling.

These are mass market disposable pieces of tech - none of it is luxury- its assembled by low wage workers in China,etc and will be a worthless brick in a few years time. It's just that companies like Apple have made people think these products are actually worth that much. Nvidia last quarter lost $1.4 billion because of their entitlement over wanting to increase margins even more because they had a great 2021 due to mining. But also like all these companies hadn't realised so many consumers and companies pulled purchases forward because of the pandemic.

Too much of this price escalation has been driven forward by excessive money printing,and cheap credit since the 2008~2009 Financial Crisis. As the belts tighten with consumer spending and borrowing,it is going to start causing problems for the tech bubble over the next few years. But if governments start reducing Quantitative Easing and start to try and reduce the amount of money in circulation a lot of tech companies are going to find things harder.

 

[wordy]

I remember buying a 1080 when they fist came out in 2016 with my new PC, I remember the buyers remorse thinking 'I must've been a ****ing idiot to have done that, never again' and saying to the g/f 'yeah this'll be the last high-ish end PC I ever buy' when I she asked how much I paid.
Here we are 6 1/2 years later and I'm looking at gfx cards and while I could do with a new card, the prices are even more ridiculous than they were in 2016. 700 - 800 quid for the last gen mid range card, a grand for this gen mid range card. **** that.

 

[TNA]

But at the same time,this entitlement of PCMR enthusiasts,we NEED to just accept pricing and tactics is a nonsense.

It is our capitalistic right to complain,moan and criticise any privately owned company as we see fit,just like it is our democractic right to criticise any government or politician. In places like the USSR,could you criticise their consumer products,openly like this? I doubt it because you were meant to prop these companies up. PCMR gamers need to stop acting like we need to keep accepting rubbish practices. Rubbish practices lead to countries having Trabants for decades. Prices like this will cause PC gaming to start slowing down and being more dependent on consoles pushing technologies forward.

It is entitlement of any of these companies to expect consumers to act like socialists to prop their businesses up,especially during these telling times. None of us exist to prop up any of these companies and neither should we defend the poor practices of Nvidia,AMD or Intel. Many here defended AMD jacking its Zen3 and Zen4 prices up,removing features,etc and tried to do the charity line too and I didn't put up with either. None of these companies give a damn about you and by extension you shouldn't feel any loyalty towards them.People complained about Zen4 pricing,and sales were poor. Prices are now falling.

These are mass market disposable pieces of tech - none of it is luxury- its assembled by low wage workers in China,etc and will be a worthless brick in a few years time. It's just that companies like Apple have made people think these products are actually worth that much. Nvidia last quarter lost $1.4 billion because of their entitlement over wanting to increase margins even more because they had a great 2021 due to mining.

@D.P. disagrees.

Get a better job and pay whatever they are asking or keep quiet!

The most disappointing thing about the 4070Ti and 4080 is.. .that Gibbo hasn't built a huge "box pyramid". Looking at the OCUK Nvidia page, he's even got enough 4090s left over to finish the job.

It could've been the biggest and longest serving graphics card pyramid in a long time. Surely got to be more fun than simply staring at them sat on the shelves all day.

How can he when these cards are selling like hotcakes apparently?

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

@D.P. disagrees.

Get a better job and pay whatever they are asking or keep quiet!




How can he when these cards are selling like hotcakes apparently?

That is what Rollo said 10+ years ago and my counter is that I would rather still pay less and have even a greater margin in life.

Some of the wealthiest people I have known,are also relatively some of the tightest people too. That is probably why they were well off!

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I remember buying a 1080 when they fist came out in 2016 with my new PC, I remember the buyers remorse thinking 'I must've been a ****ing idiot to have done that, never again' and saying to the g/f 'yeah this'll be the last high-ish end PC I ever buy' when I she asked how much I paid.
Here we are 6 1/2 years later and I'm looking at gfx cards and while I could do with a new card, the prices are even more ridiculous than they were in 2016. 700 - 800 quid for the last gen mid range card, a grand for this gen mid range card. **** that.

This has been happening since Kepler - when Nvidia had a winner they decided to rebrand the midrange GK104 as a high end. The true Kepler launch was the GTX700 series,when the big chip was the top SKU. Same happened with Pascal - only when the GTX1080TI was released,then it was the "proper" launch. Compare that to the 8800 era,where they priced the 8800GT really well and pushed prices right down,or the ATI HD4000 era? What you are seeing is accountants and stock market margin speculation being the only focus of these companies.

It's become worse and worse since the 2008/2009 crash and it's a massive speculative bubble.

They do not care about you as a consumer anymore - it's why consumers need to stop caring about them and stop being loyal. Loyality used to be rewarded,but now apparently these companies take consumers as mugs and loyal consumers are consider easy money. Just look at what is happening with gaming? Full priced games with Free to Play monetisation models.

But going back to Kepler. People here were defending the Titan cards,despite it essentially doubling the price of the top end model in a year. Some were pointing out because TSMC 28NM cost so much! Why did they point it out? Someone "leaked" an Nvidia slide with them complaining TSMC 28NM cost too much(or something to that level). Very convenient timing,right?

Ultimately this has all been done because Apple got away with pricing stuff which was cheap to make at very high pricing. Literally everyone is trying to copy it. But the issue is longer term,huge lower margin markets are being ignored,and it is meant foreign companies are now slowly taking advantage in many areas(even outside of tech). This obsession of margins over volume,is going to make companies in the west have lower and lower economies of scale,which means prices will get higher and higher,as the volume decreases. This is why all their marketing is trying to push people higher and higher up the product scale,and why I don't believe any of it. It's all about restricting choices in the end.

 

[D.P.]

I can't afford to be a PC gamer any more but as long as the shareholders are happy long live capitalism I guess.

That is capitalism. I would like to buy a chalet in the swiss mountains and a nez Tesla X but i can't afford to. It is not a basic right to want a luxory.

But your statement is also false. You don't have to buy the latest GPU or play the latest games on high settings. You can play some games on a basic APU, or buy second hand GPU and game at 1080p with low settings. Again, it is not a basic right to be able to play 4k120fps in the latest

 

[TNA]

That is capitalism. I would like to buy a chalet in the swiss mountains and a nez Tesla X but i can't afford to. It is not a basic right to want a luxory.

But your statement is also false. You don't have to buy the latest GPU or play the latest games on high settings. You can play some games on a basic APU, or buy second hand GPU and game at 1080p with low settings. Again, it is not a basic right to be able to play 4k120fps in the latest

Just as it is everyone else right to complain and vote with their wallet. Don't see the problem here? You essentially seem to be saying pay up or shut up which is wrong also no?

 

[D.P.]

Prices generally trend up but this gen its different as the level of the increase is obscene and unprecedented and results in almost double the increase in one generation compared to what we've seen in the 10 years before that so its not surprising people are kicking off.

no one is denying the price changes, although it would be useful to compare mike-for-like models in the line and adjust for inflation.

We are currently in a cost of living crisis with essential just to live like food, heating and electricity increasing at rates faster than GPUs.

 

[RavenXXX2]

That is capitalism. I would like to buy a chalet in the swiss mountains and a nez Tesla X but i can't afford to. It is not a basic right to want a luxory.

But your statement is also false. You don't have to buy the latest GPU or play the latest games on high settings. You can play some games on a basic APU, or buy second hand GPU and game at 1080p with low settings. Again, it is not a basic right to be able to play 4k120fps in the latest

What do you care if we have a nag on here about del boy Jensen and his cousin Lisa teaming up to price fix the market at never seen before price increases. You just skip along and don't mind us, I'm sure Jensen appreciates your defence of him and his dodgy prices.

 

[D.P.]

Just as it is everyone else right to complain and vote with their wallet. Don't see the problem here? You essentially seem to be saying pay up or shut up which is wrong also no?

no, i am saying every generation have the same people complaining and making the same retarded comments about the death of PC gaming, yet everyone continues to buy GPUs and Nvidia just gains market share. People seem to think Nvidia have zero clue how to set prices, yet they are actually experts. It is just that some vocal forum posters don't mike what the market determines as fair market value.

And TBH, i wouldn't touch a current Nvidia or AMD GPU with a barge given the prices, but obviously i am not the target market.

Do you also complain that a Ferrari is so expensive? No, one buys a second hand Ford and moves on.

 

[D.P.]

What do you care if we have a nag on here about del boy Jensen and his cousin Lisa teaming up to price fix the market at never seen before price increases. You just skip along and don't mind us, I'm sure Jensen appreciates your defence of him and his dodgy prices.

i don't care, i just find it hilarious, which is exactly what i said in my first post if you bothered to read it. You are the one that seems upset at me pointing out the basics of western economics.

 

[TNA]

no, i am saying every generation have the same people complaining and making the same retarded comments about the death of PC gaming, yet everyone continues to buy GPUs and Nvidia just gains market share. People seem to think Nvidia have zero clue how to set prices, yet they are actually experts. It is just that some vocal forum posters don't mike what the market determines as fair market value.

And TBH, i wouldn't touch a current Nvidia or AMD GPU with a barge given the prices, but obviously i am not the target market.

Do you also complain that a Ferrari is so expensive? No, one buys a second hand Ford and moves on.

Agree with some of that. But the Farrari example is poor. They were never affordable in the first place.

 

[Darujhistan]

I think the key point you made here is that nobody is forced to buy the graphics cards.
If you want to buy one, buy one, if you don't want to buy one, don't.
It's a luxury item that you don't need. You're not entitled to have a top tier graphics card.

Sure, I'd like them to be cheaper too, but I'd also like things like cars and houses to be cheaper too. People just seem to have accepted that they're expensive and maybe that's what we'll have to do with GPUs too (for this generation at least).

Yes, let's just accept that everything sucks...

 

[Ayahuasca]

Top G’s just earn more, it math, just ask Rishi.

Plus, the rent a GPU model is coming to save us all.

 

[TNA]

Top G’s just earn more, it math, just ask Rishi.

Plus, the rent a GPU model is coming to save us all.

Soon might be like mobile phones. £75 a month for two years for the 5090. £80 a month unlocks DLSS 4

 

[Ayahuasca]

£80 a month unlocks DLSS 4

Can’t wait for that, I’ve heard it renders an AI optimised version of Jensen in-between each frame.

His leather jacket is fully path traced.

 

[Twinz]

Names, "classes" and die sizes are all distractions.

We should be looking at how well each generation's *money* performs and remember that not all price points in a given generation offer good value to begin with.

If manufacturers can't offer meaningful improvements at a given price point, it's not reall progress. I don't care what they scribble on the side of the box.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Can’t wait for that, I’ve heard it renders an AI optimised version of Jensen in-between each frame.

His leather jacket is fully path traced.

Also renders a picture of a Whale sitting on a bed of Dollars saying Thank You PCMR you are one of us!

 

[SpellowHouse]

They won't explicitly lower MSRP, but can lower actual costs which helps IHVs lower their costs. They can also create games packages etc.


But these pricing arguments are boring, they happen every release and the same people saying Nvidia is killing PC gaming make the same retarded statements that are shown to be false every release.

Yes, the prices seem absurd to me, but Nvidia sets prices to maximize total profits, not revenue or market share. And Nvidia can only set a price point that the market supports, this is economics 101. Nvidia and AMD are not charities, and GPUs are not a basic human right, so their is zero legal nor moral ground for purposely reducing profits. In fact, doing so would actually have potential legal issues because as both companies are publicly traded, then their main legal responsibility is to maximize returns for shareholders (within this are legal and moral responsibility to workers, the environment etc). But as a consumer of a luxury product aimed for the worlds richest people, you either suck up to their pricing, or buy a console.

I think you are right, in that they probably won't reduce MSRP, not until the 50 series anyway. And I also think that discussing why they have done this is pointless, but this is not good business, it's very bad business. At the very least they have failed to present good reasons for the price increases to the experts and gamers alike. A graphics card is an essential product for the PC but NVIDIA are trying to turn it in to a luxury product. You can't just SAY it's a luxury product and expect the people to buy it. You have to earn that tag and NVIDIA certainly have not.