What do you think of the 4070Ti?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I think you are right, in that they probably won't reduce MSRP, not until the 50 series anyway. And I also think that discussing why they have done this is pointless, but this is not good business, it's very bad business. At the very least they have failed to present good reasons for the price increases to the experts and gamers alike. A graphics card is an essential product for the PC but NVIDIA are trying to turn it in to a luxury product. You can't just SAY it's a luxury product and expect the people to buy it. You have to earn that tag and NVIDIA certainly have not.

Because there is a obsession of the stock market over short term margins,even over actual revenue. In August their gaming revenue was down 1/3 compared to the same period a year ago,and they had to write off $1.32 billion! They could have decreased pricing and sold far more of the Ampere stock,but that would reduce margins.

This is the weakness with this obsession of the stock market over short term margins,it's actually more damaging in the longterm. Everything is run too leanly,with no backup plan, to maximise short term margins. Just look at the energy market in Europe for example - no back up plan and governments are quite happy to join in helping them out.

Ultimately the tech industry overpromised to investors they would see the same sort of growth they saw over 2020 and 2021 for the next few years. Now they have to keep to that promise at all costs. This is why Nvidia despite ripoff pricing is screwing over its AIB partners.

Too much of this price escalation has been driven forward by excessive money printing,and cheap credit since the 2008~2009 Financial Crisis. As the belts tighten with consumer spending and borrowing,it is going to start causing problems for the tech bubble over the next few years. But if governments start reducing Quantitative Easing and start to try and reduce the amount of money in circulation a lot of tech companies are going to find things harder.

The entitlement complex of the tech industry over the last decade is going to end up in a very hard landing,if they don't enter some sort of reality. You can't just base endless margin growth on endless Fiat money printing and endless borrowing!

 

[nomadd]

Too much of this price escalation has been driven forward by excessive money printing,and cheap credit since the 2008~2009 Financial Crisis. As the belts tighten with consumer spending and borrowing,it is going to start causing problems for the tech bubble over the next few years. But if governments start reducing Quantitative Easing and start to try and reduce the amount of money in circulation a lot of tech companies are going to find things harder.

QE has already stopped. QT has started.

Even with a near 50% share price fall in the last year, Nvidia is still massively overvalued - has a trading P/E of 63! S&P average long-term P/E is ~10, and still only 15 in the last 20 years of ZIRP policies.

It will be very interesting to see if this new era of hyper-priced graphics cards works out for Nvidia. Tell will tell.

 

[gpuerrilla]

no one is denying the price changes, although it would be useful to compare mike-for-like models in the line and adjust for inflation.

People seem to think Nvidia have zero clue how to set prices, yet they are actually experts. It is just that some vocal forum posters don't mike what the market determines as fair market value.

Gotta dig mike!

QE has already stopped. QT has started.

Even with a near 50% share price fall in the last year, Nvidia is still massively overvalued - has a trading P/E of 63! S&P average long-term P/E is ~10, and still only 15 in the last 20 years of ZIRP policies.

It will be very interesting to see if this new era of hyper-priced graphics cards works out for Nvidia. Tell will tell.

The observation most are all waiting to see the fallout of. Not sure why we still get such staunch defensive posts that their shenanigans are ok because of reasons, they are way out of touch and fanboy views aside - nvidia need a big kick in the balls.

 

[von Humboldt]

Many seem to be ignoring a relevant point. Higher GPU prices in the long term will mean less people playing on PC. If the trend continues, sooner or later developers will stop putting as many resources into bringing their games to PC.

I don't give a **** about AMD's or Nvidia's bottom line. And it's irrelevant if we as individuals can afford/justify current pricing. But I do care about the health of my hobby. So while currently it's doing very well (and it's not going to suddenly die) higher GPU prices aren't good for the gaming industry long term. Where's the benefit in being one of the minority that can afford a £2K graphics card if you don't have the best games to play on it?

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Yes, let's just accept that everything sucks...

And what do you think moaning on this forum achieves? Do you think Nvidia and AMD are glued to this sub forum to see if they made the right choices?

 

[SpellowHouse]

Because there is a obsession of the stock market over short term margins,even over actual revenue. In August their gaming revenue was down 1/3 compared to the same period a year ago,and they had to write off $1.32 billion! They could have decreased pricing and sold far more of the Ampere stock,but that would reduce margins.

This is the weakness with this obsession of the stock market over short term margins,it's actually more damaging in the longterm. Everything is run too leanly,with no backup plan, to maximise short term margins. Just look at the energy market in Europe for example - no back up plan and governments are quite happy to join in helping them out.

Ultimately the tech industry overpromised to investors they would see the same sort of growth they saw over 2020 and 2021 for the next few years. Now they have to keep to that promise at all costs. This is why Nvidia despite ripoff pricing is screwing over its AIB partners.

Too much of this price escalation has been driven forward by excessive money printing,and cheap credit since the 2008~2009 Financial Crisis. As the belts tighten with consumer spending and borrowing,it is going to start causing problems for the tech bubble over the next few years. But if governments start reducing Quantitative Easing and start to try and reduce the amount of money in circulation a lot of tech companies are going to find things harder.

The entitlement complex of the tech industry over the last decade is going to end up in a very hard landing,if they don't enter some sort of reality. You can't just base endless margin growth on endless Fiat money printing and endless borrowing!

NVIDIA have to face the fact that if Moores law is dead, as they claim, then what that really means is they can't justify an entirely new product range every two years. Trying to keep going with exactly the same business model and pin the cost on the consumer just isn't going to work.

 

[nomadd]

And what do you think moaning on this forum achieves?

Closure.

 

[Darujhistan]

And what do you think moaning on this forum achieves? Do you think Nvidia and AMD are glued to this sub forum to see if they made the right choices?

And what do you think accepting having your pants pulled down achieves?

These 91 companies paid no federal taxes in 2018

A new report from think tank says some of the biggest companies in the country had effective tax rates of 0% or less in 2018.

www.cnbc.com

Amazing how you think this is acceptable and we should all just shut up and accept it...

 

[nomadd]

NVIDIA have to face the fact that if Moores law is dead, as they claim, then what that really means is they can't justify an entirely new product range every two years. Trying to keep going with exactly the same business model and pin the cost on the consumer just isn't going to work.

Well, if AMD (and Nvidia, Intel) can make their "chiplet" designs work, we may see huge surges in graphics performance - and all without the need of huge, expensive monolithic dies.

 

[gpuerrilla]

NVIDIA have to face the fact that if Moores law is dead, as they claim, then what that really means is they can't justify an entirely new product range every two years. Trying to keep going with exactly the same business model and pin the cost on the consumer just isn't going to work.

That's what the 'features' are for. Hairworks, physx, g-sync, DLSS, frame generation.

And what do you think accepting having your pants pulled down achieves?

D-RTX-y

 

[nomadd]

Amazing how you think this is acceptable and we should all just shut up and accept it...

I guess the company thinking is: Our President gets away with it, why shouldn't we!

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

QE has already stopped. QT has started.

Even with a near 50% share price fall in the last year, Nvidia is still massively overvalued - has a trading P/E of 63! S&P average long-term P/E is ~10, and still only 15 in the last 20 years of ZIRP policies.

It will be very interesting to see if this new era of hyper-priced graphics cards works out for Nvidia. Tell will tell.

It's a huge bubble,which is fueled by massive speculation on margins,fueled by lots of QE and cheap credit. It's meant lots of companies borrowed more money than they need to,and paid too much for acquisitions,etc. Then they used cheap consumer credit to massively jack up pricing. Then they used this to jack up "margins" and by extension share price. The issue here is that they are billions in debt - some tech companies can just about cover it from cash in the bank,but others are relying on using their increasing share price and their "market cap" as a way to cover all of this borrowing. Then they keep promising more and more record margin increases each year. All of them want to follow the Apple model,but it also leads to huge gaps in the market for future competitors to fulfill,and as time progresses economies of scale are lost,leading to a spiral as costs per unit item sold have to go up and up. This is why so much important things are now made or even developed outside the US and Europe because the margins were apparently to low,leading to real weakness in our economies which are being exposed now!

But the reality it seems the places which produce the natural resources and manufacture products have the real power,as seen by all the economic issues happening now. All this asset bubble management is literally like moving around chairs on the deck of the Titanic!

NVIDIA have to face the fact that if Moores law is dead, as they claim, then what that really means is they can't justify an entirely new product range every two years. Trying to keep going with exactly the same business model and pin the cost on the consumer just isn't going to work.

That is what the PCMR Whales on tech forums don't get just because they are easily manipulated by marketing. They are desperate like very pious people to defend these tech companies. But forget this is a tech forum,fill of tech minded people who don't take things at face value. Many in the past attacked the few honest people in the press who were on the side of the consumer too - seen it over computer hardware or crap practices in the gaming industry. Many of the excuse makers said people shouldn't complain even a decade ago and what many of us predicted would happen - this has happened and now people even admit "I am priced out too" exactly as some of us said it would go.

Don't complain because it hurts their sensibilities or the sensibilities of companies. Sounds like some sort cult to me,where all the dirty laundry has to aired behind closed doors. One has to question if it offends them so much,they can always frequent other more pliable social media spheres,where they can stay in a comfortable echo chamber.

 

[brostradamus]

there are 2 potential scenarios - both nvidia/amd are expecting volume drops due to the economic situation so either the increased prices will result in greater than expected revenue or you have a situation where sales volumes tank taking down revenues as well.. which should be clear post Q4 results. the idea is if you are not anyhow going to be able to sell high volumes try to figure out a price zone at which an optimal market segment is inelastic to the change. the fact that amd/nvidia can actually implement this strategy only means that there isnt enough competition in there

 

[nomadd]

But the reality it seems the places which produce the natural resources and manufacture products have the real power,as seen by all the economic issues happening now. All this asset bubble management is literally like moving around chairs on the deck of the Titanic!

The crazy thing is you have Nvidia on a P/E of 63 and AMD on a P/E of 38.

And yet the company they are both completely dependent on, TSMC, has a much more reasonable P/E of 13.

Talk about cart before horse.

 

[TNA]

the idea is if you are not anyhow going to be able to sell high volumes try to figure out a price zone at which an optimal market segment is inelastic to the change.

This does seem to be one of the things they are doing this gen. Hopefully next gen things will be different nad we get more sensible pricing for the non halo cards. For example they can release the 5090 2-3 months before anything else allowing for maximum milkage. Then go 5080 Ti for a bit cheaper for a month or so and finally bring out the 5080 and below at sensible prices after.

Their current strategy will only harm eco they operate in in the long term.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

there are 2 potential scenarios - both nvidia/amd are expecting volume drops due to the economic situation so either the increased prices will result in greater than expected revenue or you have a situation where sales volumes tank taking down revenues as well.. which should be clear post Q4 results. the idea is if you are not anyhow going to be able to sell high volumes try to figure out a price zone at which an optimal market segment is inelastic to the change. the fact that amd/nvidia can actually implement this strategy only means that there isnt enough competition in there

They made promises which they couldn't keep to investors. The 2020/2021 pandemic years were exceptional periods,where many consumers and companies pulled forward purchases so work from home could be implemented,and lots of people couldn't do normal hobbies,so their disposable income was spent on tech,especially computers and the miners got in on the action. Now the world is moving back to normal,people are spending their disposable income on their other hobbies,are going out more to social events,travelling more,etc. Most have fairly new computers so don't need to change for a while. Then the rise in interest rates,food costs and energy costs are cutting disposable income. Yet these companies want to increase their margins even more,instead of being honest in the longer term.

Also the issue is longer term,even if the strategy works out this year,what about next year and the year after that? The issue is too many companies just because they have a year or two,seem to want to indicate this will the way it is forever? How can you have record margin growth forever?

Nvidia,AMD and Intel should have been honest to their investors that this was temporary period,and things would calm down. But because of greediness,decided to promise more record growth. Now we have the situation where they are pulling out stops to game the market unofficially together.

The crazy thing is you have Nvidia on a P/E of 63 and AMD on a P/E of 38.

And yet the company they are both completely dependent on, TSMC, has a much more reasonable P/E of 13.

Talk about cart before horse.

Exactly. Intel which has it's own fabs is around 10 too.

This is more stock market hype,just like before the 1929 crash,1987 crash,2000 crash and 2007 crash. Lots of dodgy maths based on buzzwords,etc and people feeding off each other.

But in the end the buzzwords of energy,oil,gas,fertiliser and food were all forgotten. Not enough short term margins on those(as these need longterm development) so lets offshore all of that to other countries!

Things that every economy needs to function on. No amount of stock market creative speculative maths and buzzwords will make up for not having any of these resources. The stock market can't heat your home,or cook your food if there isn't enough energy......unless you burn the stock certificates.

This does seem to be one of the things they are doing this gen. Hopefully next gen things will be different nad we get more sensible pricing for the non halo cards. For example they can release the 5090 2-3 months before anything else allowing for maximum milkage. Then go 5080 Ti for a bit cheaper for a month or so and finally bring out the 5080 and below at sensible prices after.

Their current strategy will only harm eco they operate in in the long term.

They don't care. If they can get a margin increase they will give up volume,and as volumes start to shrink over time,they will not only have to give "investors" the record margin increases they have hinted at,but also all the other fixed costs,etc have to be amortised over less and less units sold. It will lead to a spiral in price increases,because if they do it the stock price will crash.

 

[gpuerrilla]

Now the world is moving back to normal,people are spending their disposable income on their other hobbies,are going out more to social events,travelling more,etc. Most have fairly new computers so don't need to change for a while.

This is what I stuck to while the frenzy was occurring last gen, you can tell with the stock sitting around now for the past 12 months. Retailers will wake up soon, but they should know better that buying stock in advance on these cards especially in high volumes is not wise, unless they are all kippering us with the real profits per unit they are still making bandit on.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

This is what I stuck to while the frenzy was occurring last gen, you can tell with the stock sitting around now for the past 12 months. Retailers will wake up soon, but they should know better that buying stock in advance on these cards especially in high volumes is not wise, unless they are all kippering us with the real profits per unit they are still making bandit on.

I told you years ago,these tech companies probably sell the parts to Dell,etc for much lower prices than us PCMR mugs,and they look at PCMR as a higher margin captive market. Because think about this? Nvidia said they had to write off costs of over a billion USD in August. It's quite clear it's not for us PCMR mugs because pricing hasn't gone back to RRP. It's obvious Dell,etc are getting good deals,but we are not. So many times(even during the pandemic) you could get dGPUs in laptops and desktops for RRP,and now I have seen plenty of good prebuilt desktop PC deals which are cheaper than building a PC yourself. Considering the PC companies have their own margins,support costs,etc that tells you how much we are still overpaying.

Years and years ago Nvidia and Intel spent billions of USD between them subsidising Tegra and Atom CPUs for tablets,but were charging us a lot for their products. I told people back then when they were doing it.

Yet people still show loyalty to these companies,and defend all the stuff they are doing. They really did find the ideal weak willed set of consumers.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Another thing I told you guys a few years ago was things such as DLSS, etc are being developed, so companies can sell weaker and weaker dGPUs for more and more money. They are all at it. Hence why RTX4050 laptops will start at $999!

The irony that PCMR was against upscaling and image reconstruction methods on consoles, and frame doubling in TVs because of their inferior hardware.

Now they willingly accept it as progress!

 

[Darujhistan]

Another thing I told you guys a few years ago was things such as DLSS, etc are being developed, so companies can sell weaker and weaker dGPUs for more and more money. They are all at it.

I've said this many times anyone basing their GPU choices on nonsense like fake frames and RT wants their heads looking at. Absolute marketing guff.