WHAT, in God's name

Jesus Camp was a stupid movie about stupid people but to throw all religious people into that group is just naive and stupid. It really shows a lack of intelligence and free thinking when you seem a small section of a group and think everyone is like that. Its called generalization and it really makes people look like idiots.
 
Erm, yea Jesus did. He mentions several time about the need for him death, and that people need to believe and trust in him in order to be saved and come to a living relationship with God
Except thats not entirely accurate now, is it?

Regardless, religious debates are usually pointless as neither side will be convinced.
 
The only wide spread religion that is actively dangerous in this is Extremist Islam. Regular Islam from what I have seen brings up very nice, well rounded people. Children brought up under religious doctrine have no worse a influence on their lives than once brought up by parents who are chavs, alcoholics, are violent, abusive (mental / physical).

In fact, apart from extremist sects of religions, can you prove your statement is of any substance?

Well perhaps, extremist Islam is the only one dangerous in a physical sense, but many others promote bigotry, intolerance...etc even in their moderate forms.

I know many 'moderate' christians that believe homosexuality is wrong, and if they put that upon their children it simply promotes bigoty, intolerance and segregation, for what? I'm pretty sure most people brought up in a neutral environment would grow up to have no problem with homosexuality.
 
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I know many 'moderate' christians that believe homosexuality is wrong, and if they put that upon their children it simply promotes bigoty, intolerance and segregation, for what? I'm pretty sure most people brought up in a neutral environment would grow up to have no problem with homosexuality.

Wrong, although they believe homosexuality is wrong. It should not create any of those things. You should love they neighbour and accept others people decisions. It doesn't mean you have to think it's right but it shouldn't cause any intolerance.
 
I know many 'moderate' christians that believe homosexuality is wrong, and if they put that upon their children it simply promotes bigoty, intolerance and segregation, for what? I'm pretty sure most people brought up in a neutral environment would grow up to have no problem with homosexuality.

Maybe it was different at your school, but at my school the kids beating up the suspected gays weren't the ones whose parents went to Church every Sunday.
 
Well perhaps, extremist Islam is the only one dangerous in a physical sense, but many others promote bigotry, intolerance...etc even in their moderate forms.

I know many 'moderate' christians that believe homosexuality is wrong, and if they put that upon their children it simply promotes bigoty, intolerance and segregation, for what? I'm pretty sure most people brought up in a neutral environment would grow up to have no problem with homosexuality.

Not true as Christians should not be bringing up their kids to be intolerant. There is a huge difference between disagreeing with something, standing up for your beliefs and being intolerant.

I think you will also find plenty of kids are bought up with racism and intolerance against others due to parents / family beliefs where there is no religious input. Take the Op and Combat Squiggle who seem to hate all religious types.

I notice Dingo has not posted back in here.
 
and who the hell are you to decide how people should think?
You sound like a dictator and not even a good one at that.


stupid is because. Religion shouldn't be whipped out and it has nothing to do with people thinking he meant "kill all religious people". Removing religion is stupid and wont solve even one problem.

Pointless activities? again why should you decide what is pointless?
Many religions do look at world issues from charity to morality and everything inbetween.

Perhaps you should open you mind and go study a religion. Just so you can understand it.

Its strange how religion always revokes such a massive reaction in every human, weather they follow one or not, responses always seem to be very emotionally based, and perhaps a spin off of evolution.

All my responses have been those of facts and what issues face this world we live in, its not for me to decide obviously, I cant change anyone's opinion, its just so very obvious that religion, even the subject matter always causes friction between people, even in this thread.

People are entitled to opinions, but I just wish more opinions were based on what's observable, i.e. things that could only effect us, as there the only ones that are real.

Of course also people get morality mixed up with religion, removing religion would not remove kind acts, of course it wouldn't remove every unkind act.

But in a perfect world, if everyone sat down and thought about it properly, would see there is no need to be unkind to anyone, which has nothing to do with religion, but all to often than not the worlds most memorable tragedies have been down to religion and racist behaviour.

I guess im putting on the table ideals that would benefit the human race to follow, its just as ever, the thread context is aimed at religious thought.

My mind is always open Acidhell2, iv studied the major religions in this world to great detail, read all major religious texts, and conversed with many religious people to there various chosen or born into faiths, iv really actually done this though and am probably one of very few people on this forum to do so.

My conclusion was reached, that religion and god believing is not real in this world, its just a result of human behaviour, probably something to do with the way our brains are wired, if there wired that way then fine, but it doesn't make it any more real at all.

Open for discussion, but I wont sit here if people start ranting without logical thought.

There has never been any proof of anything to do with religion, because I cant prove that only adds to the argument that it doesn't exist, how can you prove an imaginary friend ? Another example, It always makes me smile when people say 'evolution is gods way of issuing upgrades' or similarly daft statements, funny its not mentioned in any religious texts. Simply put, evolution is an observation of something that happens before our very eyes, and has never been disproved, and is constantly being proven, and ill say again, we have observed it happening and have a vast wealth of evidence for it.

This is then taken on board by religious people to be something its not, and then gets skewed around to religious purposes, continually adapting obsolete material is not a way to go, basically.

Anyways randomly wondered off topic slightly, and this post will no doubt provoke a negative response, just dont go off on one and actually think about things, an emotional response to what one holds dear is one thing, what actually goes on in the world is something that effects us all.
 
But this isn't about whether you can prove god. It's about you wanting to ban/remove religion for no good reason apart from intolerance. You might of studied it and came to that conclusion. But other people have studied it and come to a different conclusion. It's pointless saying no evidence has been found. Therefore that add weights to it not existing. As science is not the right tool for the job and can't prove squat in this case.

Why should people only have opinions on what's real? we wouldn't move forward if that happened. We all knew we where at the centre of the universe, the earth was flat. It's human nature to look beyond the understandable, it's how we move forward and learn new things.

Oh and by the way I'm not religious. I just hate thought control and the very idea of it sickens me. It's no better than a brutal dictator. Removing peoples freedom of choice should never happen. That is what you are promoting, surly you can see how bad an idea that is.
 
Wrong, although they believe homosexuality is wrong. It should not create any of those things. You should love they neighbour and accept others people decisions. It doesn't mean you have to think it's right but it shouldn't cause any intolerance.

It shouldn't create those things but it does. This is part of the problem, the bible is entirely open to interpretation.

I think you will also find plenty of kids are bought up with racism and intolerance against others due to parents / family beliefs where there is no religious input.

Well obviously, can't see what the point of stating that was.

I'm not arguing against religion as a whole here, I'm simply aruging against indoctrinating children with religious dogma. I simply believe children should be able to grow up and make their own judgements and decisions of the world without potentially harmful religious input. Like it or not there are people that use religion to promote intolerance, bigotry...etc and they will put that upon their children, I believe that should be illegal.

And even if that religious input isn't promoting either of those things, I still think they should grow up without religious influence. What is the purpose of pushing religion upon children? You can still teach them good morals and how to act like civilised human beings without it. It's not fair to make such decisions for them, they should be able to grow up, make their own judgements and then decide.
 
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Its strange how religion always revokes such a massive reaction in every human, weather they follow one or not, responses always seem to be very emotionally based, and perhaps a spin off of evolution.

It evokes a strong response in the pro and anti camps, and oppression of it evokes a strong response from anyone in favour of free speech.

Combat squirrel said:
All my responses have been those of facts and what issues face this world we live in, its not for me to decide obviously, I cant change anyone's opinion, its just so very obvious that religion, even the subject matter always causes friction between people, even in this thread.

Religion always cause friction? That's a bit of a leap.

Combat squirrel said:
People are entitled to opinions, but I just wish more opinions were based on what's observable, i.e. things that could only effect us, as there the only ones that are real.

Firstly, please sort your spelling and grammar out as your posts are hard to read. That should be "affect" and "they're". Secondly - the real point - everyone takes a lot for granted based on things they can't observe. Most people have no idea how most of science works, but they're happy to use the benefits of it. Also, you're once again coming at it from the perspective that God isn't real, which isn't really a fair way to argue things. You talk as though we all know that God isn't real, but that religious people choose to believe in him anyway. It doesn't make sense.

Combat squirrel said:
Of course also people get morality mixed up with religion, removing religion would not remove kind acts, of course it wouldn't remove every unkind act.

Probably true, yes.

Combat squirrel said:
But in a perfect world, if everyone sat down and thought about it properly, would see there is no need to be unkind to anyone, which has nothing to do with religion, but all to often than not the worlds most memorable tragedies have been down to religion and racist behaviour.

That's a very humanist perspective, as though we could all just decide to be nice to one another. Sadly, human nature dictates that we can't.

Also, I'd love to see proof that "the worlds most memorable tragedies have been down to religion", and I'd also be curious to know why you lump racism in with religion.

Combat squirrel said:
I guess im putting on the table ideals that would benefit the human race to follow, its just as ever, the thread context is aimed at religious thought.

Indeed.

Combat squirrel said:
My mind is always open Acidhell2, iv studied the major religions in this world to great detail, read all major religious texts, and conversed with many religious people to there various chosen or born into faiths, iv really actually done this though and am probably one of very few people on this forum to do so.

That would rather put you in a minority, yes.

Combat squirrel said:
My conclusion was reached, that religion and god believing is not real in this world, its just a result of human behaviour, probably something to do with the way our brains are wired, if there wired that way then fine, but it doesn't make it any more real at all.

Ah, right, so you believe that God isn't real, right?

Combat squirrel said:
Open for discussion, but I wont sit here if people start ranting without logical thought.

Given that you started out by defending the OP, I'd say that's a bit of a leap.

Combat squirrel said:
There has never been any proof of anything to do with religion, because I cant prove that only adds to the argument that it doesn't exist, how can you prove an imaginary friend ?

What? So because you can't prove that God doesn't exist only goes to provide further proof that he doesn't? I thought you just said you only wanted logical thought in here?

Combat squirrel said:
Another example, It always makes me smile when people say 'evolution is gods way of issuing upgrades' or similarly daft statements, funny its not mentioned in any religious texts. Simply put, evolution is an observation of something that happens before our very eyes, and has never been disproved, and is constantly being proven, and ill say again, we have observed it happening and have a vast wealth of evidence for it.

Right, great, you want to argue as though all Christians or religious folk are young earth creationists. Great straw man, have fun with it.

Combat squirrel said:
This is then taken on board by religious people to be something its not, and then gets skewed around to religious purposes, continually adapting obsolete material is not a way to go, basically.

Nothing like the progression of science, no? Adapting old theories that don't work in the light of new things?

Combat squirrel said:
Anyways randomly wondered off topic slightly, and this post will no doubt provoke a negative response, just dont go off on one and actually think about things, an emotional response to what one holds dear is one thing, what actually goes on in the world is something that effects us all.
 
I'm not arguing against religion as a whole here, I'm simply aruging against indoctrinating children with religious dogma. I simply believe children should be able to grow up and make their own judgements and decisions of the world without potentially harmful religious input. Like it or not there are people that use religion to promote intolerance, bigotry...etc and they will put that upon their children, I believe that should be illegal.

Children get indoctrinated with everything their parents believe, be it religion, capitalism, which football team to support...
 
It shouldn't create those things but it does. This is part of the problem, the bible is entirely open to interpretation.

Which just goes to prove that it's people that are the problem, not the texts.

Well obviously, can't see what the point of stating that was.

I'm not arguing against religion as a whole here, I'm simply aruging against indoctrinating children with religious dogma. I simply believe children should be able to grow up and make their own judgements and decisions of the world without potentially harmful religious input. Like it or not there are people that use religion to promote intolerance, bigotry...etc and they will put that upon their children, I believe that should be illegal.

And even if that religious input isn't promoting either of those things, I still think they should grow up without religious influence. What is the purpose of pushing religion upon children? You can still teach them good morals and how to act like a civilised human beings without it. It's not fair to make such decisions for them, they should be able to make their own judgements and then decide.

How is demanding atheist or agnostic indoctrination any different from indoctrinating with a religion?

There's no such thing as growing up without a religious influence, because even if you opinion doesn't involve a God or a text, it's still, to all intents and purposes, a religious influence, especially if you use it to restrict the information children get.

You say you don't want to make decisions for them, while doing exactly that.
 
I'm not arguing against religion as a whole here, I'm simply aruging against indoctrinating children with religious dogma. I simply believe children should be able to grow up and make their own judgements and decisions of the world without potentially harmful religious input. Like it or not there are people that use religion to promote intolerance, bigotry...etc and they will put that upon their children, I believe that should be illegal.
.

:rolleyes: make it illegal. How can you teach people religion. The world is very one sided at the moment. People simply turn there nose up at religion without understanding one thing about it, just because it's the cool and normal thing to do. Nothing wrong with teaching it to kids and it should be taught with free will. After all that's what religion says. It should be taught this my religion(parents) this is what I believe this is why, reasons behind it blah blah blah. You will have to make you own mind up.

Just because SOME people don't do that, it's not the religions fault and it shouldn't be banned. Again your going down dictator and thought controll routes. Which is not good for everyone and is sick.
 
Its strange how religion always revokes such a massive reaction in every human, weather they follow one or not, responses always seem to be very emotionally based, and perhaps a spin off of evolution.

Only in some cases. Most of us here try to provide a more balanced discussion with rational contributions. ;)

All my responses have been those of facts and what issues face this world we live in, its not for me to decide obviously, I cant change anyone's opinion, its just so very obvious that religion, even the subject matter always causes friction between people, even in this thread.

People are entitled to opinions, but I just wish more opinions were based on what's observable, i.e. things that could only effect us, as there the only ones that are real.

Most of your responses tend to be fleeting remarks or sweeping generalisations based on your opinions.

My mind is always open Acidhell2, iv studied the major religions in this world to great detail, read all major religious texts, and conversed with many religious people to there various chosen or born into faiths, iv really actually done this though and am probably one of very few people on this forum to do so.

My conclusion was reached, that religion and god believing is not real in this world, its just a result of human behaviour, probably something to do with the way our brains are wired, if there wired that way then fine, but it doesn't make it any more real at all.

I really don’t believe you have properly studied all the religions, by your answers in this thread and others on these types of topics. Notwithstanding, you are entitled to reach your conclusions. However getting rid of all religion, which for a lot of people acts as a central point in their lives, whether it is real or not would undermine their being. You can’t remove the parts of human behaviour that are receptive to this stuff.

Open for discussion, but I wont sit here if people start ranting without logical thought.

Your logical thought tends to be that you only support people who share your view, like the OP who was on one heck of an illogical rant.

There has never been any proof of anything to do with religion,

Again, there is plenty of proof for religion. Take a look at the number of people who follow a religion. That in itself is an overwhelming quantum of evidence that religion exists and could quite possibly be more than something made up in people’s heads.

You can dismiss it but it is still there.

This is then taken on board by religious people to be something its not, and then gets skewed around to religious purposes, continually adapting obsolete material is not a way to go, basically.

Anyways randomly wondered off topic slightly, and this post will no doubt provoke a negative response, just dont go off on one and actually think about things, an emotional response to what one holds dear is one thing, what actually goes on in the world is something that effects us all.

You still fail to provide a balanced argument for banning / removing all religion from our society.

When people say others will establish morals, do good etc etc without religion this is highly unlikely given the amount of people in this world who act selfishly and have no religion.

Religion is founded on morals and a sense of right and wrong. Not all religious values may be agreed with but on the whole, the common themes of the religious texts are to promote love and a good way of living revolving around a God or the God.

Now if someone were to write a guide for living a good life etc etc, much like the highway code, which people would be expected to follow in the absence of any religion, would that in itself not establish itself as a religion?
 
Which just goes to prove that it's people that are the problem, not the texts.



How is demanding atheist or agnostic indoctrination any different from indoctrinating with a religion?

There's no such thing as growing up without a religious influence, because even if you opinion doesn't involve a God or a text, it's still, to all intents and purposes, a religious influence, especially if you use it to restrict the information children get.

You say you don't want to make decisions for them, while doing exactly that.

I didn't say anything about indoctinating them with atheism...etc, I don't believe they should be indocrinated with either, simply taught and brought up on a neutral standpoint for them to make their own decisions when they are old enough.

I didn't say anything about restricting information, I perhaps worded it incorrectly, I meant I don't think it's right for parents to decide for their children whether or not they will act and live as a christian, for example.
 
I didn't say anything about indoctinating them with atheism...etc, I don't believe they should be indocrinated with either, simply taught and brought up on a neutral standpoint for them to make their own decisions when they are old enough.

How is banning parents from bringing their children up within a religion different from mandating they must be brought up agnostic or atheist? It really isn't, it's exactly the same thing. Your position is no different from someone suggesting that it should be illegal to bring children up as anything other than Christian, and equally unpleasant.

I didn't say anything about restricting information, I perhaps worded it incorrectly, I meant I don't think it's right for parents to decide for their children whether or not they will act and live as a christian, for example.

So, by definition, you must be attaching an alternative behaviour/belief model. This is unavoidable in the terms you've presented it. if you ban the teaching of religion to children, you are (directly or indirectly) indoctrinating them into atheism/agnosticism.
 
It shouldn't create those things but it does. This is part of the problem, the bible is entirely open to interpretation.

Well obviously, can't see what the point of stating that was.

I'm not arguing against religion as a whole here, I'm simply aruging against indoctrinating children with religious dogma. I simply believe children should be able to grow up and make their own judgements and decisions of the world without potentially harmful religious input. Like it or not there are people that use religion to promote intolerance, bigotry...etc and they will put that upon their children, I believe that should be illegal.

And even if that religious input isn't promoting either of those things, I still think they should grow up without religious influence. What is the purpose of pushing religion upon children? You can still teach them good morals and how to act like civilised human beings without it. It's not fair to make such decisions for them, they should be able to grow up, make their own judgements and then decide.

Which just goes to prove that it's people that are the problem, not the texts.

How is demanding atheist or agnostic indoctrination any different from indoctrinating with a religion?

There's no such thing as growing up without a religious influence, because even if you opinion doesn't involve a God or a text, it's still, to all intents and purposes, a religious influence, especially if you use it to restrict the information children get.

You say you don't want to make decisions for them, while doing exactly that.

:rolleyes: make it illegal. How can you teach people religion. The world is very one sided at the moment. People simply turn there nose up at religion without understanding one thing about it, just because it's the cool and normal thing to do. Nothing wrong with teaching it to kids and it should be taught with free will. After all that's what religion says. It should be taught this my religion(parents) this is what I believe this is why, reasons behind it blah blah blah. You will have to make you own mind up.

Just because SOME people don't do that, it's not the religions fault and it shouldn't be banned. Again your going down dictator and thought controll routes. Which is not good for everyone and is sick.

Kittens, what you are asking for as Dolph and AcidHell have responded seems a little misguided. Now it is probably fair to say; “Like it or not there are people that use religion to promote intolerance, bigotry...etc and they will put that upon their children” does happen but it also happens a lot outside of religion. Every child is conditioned around its up bringing.
 
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