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When the Gpu's prices will go down ?

Soldato
Joined
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It's not me who defines what low-end is it's the people who sell the cards, how many cards are above or bellow a 6600? I count at most two under it and at least 9 above it so by any definition it would be consider low end.

No, no, no. High or low isn't defined by how something performs, it's defined by how many models are above or bellow it.

Defining things based on the performance of past products just because they're better than what came before is what got us into this mess in the first place, if a company can't offer me a better product for a similar price then there's no reason to buy it, I'll just keep what I've got until it stops working.

Anyone looking rationally and logically at it would agree with you. Its about the position in the product stack. People have been easily indoctrinated by marketing,when companies mess about with product stacks and naming,and end up selling you less for more. So they go by naming and expect the next generation with the same generational naming is a one for one replacement. It isn't. It happened before with smartphones,when companies introduced intermediate models. Its usually the new intermediate model above it,which is the true replacement with a price increase,not the one they think(and then people wonder why the similarly priced "replacement" is a sidegrade). It's basically a form of shrinkflation to increase profit margins.

With dGPUs,it's not only position in the stack,its the size of the dGPU which indicates the transistor count and memory bus. The larger the dGPU used,the higher the relative percentage compared to the top end,and usually the larger the relative memory bus(which means more memory bandwidth). The closer this is to the higher end model,the more the midrange is performant.

To go back a decade ago,a 60 series dGPU was using the second largest chip in the stack. So a GTX460TI was the second tier dGPU in the range,and third overall in the range. The same as the GTX560TI,HD6850,etc. This was the case for a decade until then. This is why mainstream dGPUs had huge improvements generation to generation on average. They were using the second best dGPU chip or even a salvage of a top tier chip.

By the time you got to Pascal,the 60 series had fallen to the third level dGPU,ie,two levels of dGPU chips above it. It was number five in the range. AMD could only compete with the second tier Nvidia dGPU(GP104),so even though Polaris was technically second in line,it was really a much lower tier chip. But this is when we started to see a period of stagnation.

Things got a slight rebalance with Ampere. So the RTX3060TI used a second tier chip,instead of the third tier chip hence why it is such a great performing dGPU for the price by modern standards. The RX6700XT used the second tier AMD chip which would make it a mainstream dGPU by old standards.

Now,with Ada Lovelace,the RTX4060,is now the fourth level. So you have an AD102,AD103 and AD106 above it. It's one tier down the dGPU stack than the RTX3060 was.

So it's not really mainstream/midrange anymore but uses an entry level/low end chip. Its equivalent in dGPU tier to a GTX950,GTX1050TI or RTX3050.The RTX4060TI is one tier down from the RTX3060TI position.

This is the big problem now with mainstream dGPUs. They are getting lower and lower down the stack,so the performance jumps at mainstream are getting relative worse,compared to the high end. Also at the same time the price is being pushed up.

Even though AMD is a bit better than Nvidia in this regard,people have forgotten the RX6600 replaced the RX5600XT/RX5700 at a higher price,and the RX6600XT replaced the RX5700XT at a similar price. Even at under £300 the RX6600 is not faster than the RX5700 and barely faster than an RX5600XT. The reference RX5700 8GB could be has for as low as £250!

The RX6600XT is the same speed as the RX5700XT but the RX5700XT could be had for not much more. But when you look at the same size of the dGPU,it's no wonder as on the same 7NM process it uses a smaller dGPU and less memory chips. It was cheaper to make. But the worse kicker,is the RX5700XT was originally supposed to be an RX680/RX690 before AMD pushed it up a bit higher because Nvidia jacked up pricing:

It actually was an RX480/RX590 replacement looking at die size,etc. AMD did an RX7900XT with it!
 
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Soldato
Joined
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10,806
All of those shenannigans are bypassed by ignoring the names and going by price/actual performance.

Not price/implied relative performance without reference to actual performance.
 
Soldato
Joined
16 Sep 2018
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12,728
All of those shenannigans are bypassed by ignoring the names and going by price/actual performance.

Not price/implied relative performance without reference to actual performance.
So basically always buy the new generation? You do understand that new generations of things almost always have better price/actual performance than previous generations i assume.

If they didn't it defeats the entire reason to buy a newer generation models, people wouldn't buy many MKVII Fiesta's if it didn't offer better price/*performance than their existing MKV.

*by whatever metric an individual is measuring performance as it's not all about speed with cars
 
Associate
Joined
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North East
With my mind set of £250 or less is a good price performance place to be..... I'm a cheapskate mindset.

With the price going down a bit, Arc 750 looking decent at £250 ish those recent drivers seem to have helped.

I'm spending this morning convincing myself this is what I should do with my Vega 64..... Even though I can't remember how many weeks it is since I turned the gaming PC on !
 
Soldato
Joined
17 Aug 2009
Posts
10,806
So basically always buy the new generation? You do understand that new generations of things almost always have better price/actual performance than previous generations i assume.

If they didn't it defeats the entire reason to buy a newer generation models, people wouldn't buy many MKVII Fiesta's if it didn't offer better price/*performance than their existing MKV.

*by whatever metric an individual is measuring performance as it's not all about speed with cars

No, the price for the actual performance you are getting sees through the BS of labels and stack engineering and lets you decide the best deal for your performance target and or wallet or pass.
 
Soldato
Joined
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12,728
No, the price for the actual performance you are getting sees through the BS of labels and stack engineering and lets you decide the best deal for your performance target and or wallet or pass.
So like i said you're essentially saying always buy the newest generation of things because the actual performance is always increasing.
 
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Soldato
Joined
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10,806
So like i said you're essentially saying always buy the newest generation of things because the actual performance is always increasing.

The **** did I say that :cry:

I listed price to performance as the metric and gave three outcomes and you say to my face I said one outcome and only used performance as the metric.
 
Soldato
Joined
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Posts
12,728
The **** did I say that :cry:

I listed price to performance as the metric and gave three outcomes and you say to my face I said one outcome and only used performance as the metric.
I literal just explained it to you in the post you replied to and the one before that. While you may not have explicitly said those exact words that's the implication of what you're saying because every new generation improves on the performance "the price for the actual performance" always increases. Show me one time where the performance did not increase.

My 'logic' that goes into buying a card and my 'goal' when buying a new card is to expect a meaningful increase in performance for a similar price, basically something that gives me considerably more than a 1% increase in performance for a 1% increase in price, if I'm not getting more performance for the same or less money then there's litrally no reason to buy a newer generation.
 
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Soldato
Joined
17 Aug 2009
Posts
10,806
I don't think there's anything worth arguing over. Everyone wants a good deal.

The matter was as I saw it, undue weight on implied performance (label, stack position) rather than actual performance.
 
Soldato
Joined
16 Sep 2018
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12,728
I don't think there's anything worth arguing over. Everyone wants a good deal.

The matter was as I saw it, undue weight on implied performance (label, stack position) rather than actual performance.
Then why did you start an argument?
3 years ago the price you've listed for the 6600 was the average selling price of AMD cards, now all it gets you is a low end card.

That's not prices falling through the floor, that's a doubling in the average selling price.
I don't like this reasoning.

Low end is a totally arbitrary label. A 6600 is a strong 1080p card that can sometimes do 1440p. That's a tangible user experience that makes sense to refer to.

High end these days means running high resolutions and RT. A completely self imposed luxury tax that has absolutely zero gating on playing the same game without those.

A strong 1080p card 3 years ago cost you more than it does today. When the 6600 launched that was not the case because of horrific pricing.

But todays prices are not particularly bad to get a specific gaming experience as opposed to buying an arbitrary position on the product stack.
Why have you spent the last two days trying to justify your reasons for you saying a 6600 is not a low-end card. :rolleyes: :confused:
 
Soldato
Joined
26 May 2014
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2,974
6600 is low end. It was a gimpy card. Utterly crap in gaming perf. Trailed behind RX 5000 series and was only useful as a mining card
The 6600 is on par with a 5700, putting it only slightly behind a 5700 XT whilst consuming 90W less power. It's really not a bad card for 1080p, though it should be £50+ cheaper even now really.

6600osdbq.png
 
Soldato
Joined
28 Oct 2011
Posts
8,499
It is an irrefutable fact that NV has cut down cards relative to their last gen counterpart. The 4070ti is NOT a 70 class card, it is a 60 class card, and when the 4060ti does appear it will also be a cut-down card.

There's absolutely no getting around this, nomenclature DOES matter, because it should tell what you're getting relative to earlier generations, but in this case it is NV's false marketing, and who can forget them pulling the fake 4080 12GB... :cry:

Nvidia are intentionally short-changing and misleading the unwary consumer, and let's face it, that's the other 98% of gamers who don't populate these kinds of forums.

Prices have escalted to isane levels, while cards specs relative to price and past gens have been cut.
 
Caporegime
Joined
1 Jun 2006
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33,648
Location
Notts
The 6600 is on par with a 5700, putting it only slightly behind a 5700 XT whilst consuming 90W less power. It's really not a bad card for 1080p, though it should be £50+ cheaper even now really.

6600osdbq.png
also what people might not know is in mw2 it flies. beating better nvidia cards. its a good value card if you play cod and get a good deal.
 
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