Why are some people so against others doing well

[Freefaller]

I don't hate bankers, I wouldn't want to do their job - a lot of them burn out and work like every hour of the day (probably doing illicit substances), all that for money? No thanks.

My time > money.

 

[porushinobu]

I wonder how many of us would have such perfect integrity if we were in a position to make a shed load of easy money with the click of a mouse or a phone call?

Do we hate bankers simply because they are rich and we are not? Or do we hate bankers because they are in a position to make themselves rich, and we are not? Or is it because we feel they have taken something from us? Why dont we hate the government for giving the green light to risky investment? Why dont we blame the government for propping banks up with tax money? Why dont we blame all the people that lied on their mortgage applications who then defaulted on their financial obligations?

It is easy to point fingers, but when you look at the wider issues simply blaming bankers is increadibly short sighted (in my opinion). Irresponsibility is a two way street.

Personally, I accept that there need to be people with lower moral standards in the world, otherwise we would not get anywhere as a country. Banking would not be for me because I would be uncomfortable doing that kind of work. But I cannot really hate the bankers because they will do that kind of work. Indeed, that kind of work is necessary, and whilst the banks dropped the ball in a big way - the world didn't end. We now have tighter regulation, more responsible lending and overall a better banking system. To be fair to banks they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

If they do lend to anyone who asks they are irresponsible. If they dont lend based on tighter acceptance criteria they are selfish and holding back progress.

While I will admit, my point about the bankers is the tip of a rather large and visually unending iceberg, it is fair to also point out that we are still suffering because of their greed.

I know there are others exploiting the masses and others causing the state of affairs in our current economic climate to detiorate, but I can only comment on those who were caught and those we know to be in the wrong.

and to go against your point about lower moral standards. I believe we would make greater strides as a culture and people if we all cooperated =, had high moral standing and treated our fellow man with respect, we could concentrate on technological advancement and the wellbeing of the whole race as opposed to concentrating on criminals and imprisoning them, but hey thats just the ideal world I want and its not impossible to achieve just really really really unlikely.

Then again, another war is inevitable such is human nature, we fight amongst ourselves because despite our beliefs about being noble and evolved we are still a slave to our basic natural drives.

• Look after number 1
• advance your own interests
• stop anyone who stands in our way

while some of us are better than others at keeping our noses clean and treating others with respect, in the end we are all the same. I would love for people to get along, but at the end of the day its the world we live in.

With the above I am not denying in any way that we have made progres as a race. We have worked hard to try and achieve

• freedom
• equality
• fair treatment of others
• human rights
• etc

we are still an infintile race populated by those who trod on others for their own personal advancement.

I was referencing the media bias instilled hatred for these so called selfish 'elite'.

A fair point to make. however I only hate those I know to be unjust, I try to get information from multiple sources rather than trust just the one. I also try to make informed decisions, and hopefully discuss them with others before finalising my beliefs on the matter. However there is your point that the media routinely practice in hate mongering to manipulate the masses in their own way. Hell even the randome scrare mongering is an annoying practice.

hell I wouldnt be suprised if one day we get a headline like

"AIDS virus to become airborne says homeless man in street"

 

[spoffle]

That's a pretty wild assumption. I'm sure that some people fall into that category but I doubt there's any clear evidence to support your claim.

That's why I said probably

 

[Haggisman]

I wonder how many of us would have such perfect integrity if we were in a position to make a shed load of easy money with the click of a mouse or a phone call?

I think the answer to this depends on where that money comes from and what other consequences it has...

I'm sure the majority of people wouldn't think twice about getting say, £25k for nothing.

When you tell them that £25k is someone else's salary for a year and without it they will lose their home, their family, etc., I wonder how many would change their mind?

 

[porushinobu]

I think the answer to this depends on where that money comes from and what other consequences it has...

I'm sure the majority of people wouldn't think twice about getting say, £25k for nothing.

When you tell them that £25k is someone else's salary for a year and without it they will lose their home, their family, etc., I wonder how many would change their mind?

Well, unless it happens most of us wont know as its a tough decision to make.
1) stick to your morals and stay in painful poverty
2) take the money and make someone else suffer

it would be very dependant on you morals and how much you care about others.

 

[Tuppy_Glossop]

Well, unless it happens most of us wont know as its a tough decision to make.
1) stick to your morals and stay in painful poverty
2) take the money and make someone else suffer

it would be very dependant on you morals and how much you care about others.

And how much you need the £25k...

 

[BuffetSlayer]

I think the answer to this depends on where that money comes from and what other consequences it has...

I'm sure the majority of people wouldn't think twice about getting say, £25k for nothing.

When you tell them that £25k is someone else's salary for a year and without it they will lose their home, their family, etc., I wonder how many would change their mind?

Yes but that assumes that the people with their finger on the button know that is the case? Could it be they are doing as they are being told to keep their job so they can keep their own house?

Would you put another mans house and kids above your own if you had to make that choice?

 

[agnes]

I have done well for my self. I came out of school with one C... The rest were D's, F's or even below...

I'm oddly the highest paid out of all of my old class I think, worked in a stable career since I left college.

Further more to that, I have a career. I often bump into my old class buddies, all of which work in the likes of B&Q, McDonalds etc etc. Which is good for them, well done and all that. But whilst I wasted my time in school. Which is my biggest regret. I pulled my finger out and still managed to make a bloody good career from nothing more than hard work.

What annoys me is when people moan and bitch about having it hard and being in a tough life etc. **** off... So, because I'm on a high paid salary (£60k) I have it easy? I've been through some properly **** jobs to get some experience. Have spent countless nights up late working away and studying for stuff that I am interviewing for the next day. Chased, chased and chased again, multiple times to push on the front of wanting a job over the other guy. 10 years I've battled to be in the position I'm in.

And you know what, those from my school who went to uni with good grades, barely even earn a fraction of what I earn, have crap jobs as 'grads' where they are given **** work and generally don't have a career and are pushing 30...

So no, I don't think people are angry with the person doing well or vise versa. It's just thinking people on the other end of the stick have it easy. Yet in reality. We all have it hard, but I feel I've had it harder due to my own mistakes. But fought to bring my self to my dream goals.

Will I make my life goal of earning £100,000 by 40? I doubt it, but I will give it my best trying to get there.

Oh, my other goal was to have a long term job in the states... Guess what, I'm off to Boston this year for a 2 year contract. Luck? No, ****** hard work.

Goals, it's what drives me.

 

[porushinobu]

Yes but that assumes that the people with their finger on the button know that is the case? Could it be they are doing as they are being told to keep their job so they can keep their own house?

Would you put another mans house and kids above your own if you had to make that choice?

if it were just me, no however I would only decide to keep it under 1 condition. If I had family + kids and I needd the money for their survival and only of they would die without it,

 

[BuffetSlayer]

if it were just me, no however I would only decide to keep it under 1 condition. If I had family + kids and I needd the money for their survival and only of they would die without it,

What about if you are a young trainee banker coming through the system and you are simply doing as your superiors instruct you without full awareness of the consequences?

The end result of a person losing their home is the same, but morally are you any less culpable?

But what if your boss is doing as he is told because his boss is threatening cuts to the workforce and your boss has a house and kids to look out for and does not want to risk losing his job and therefore his home?

What if your bosses boss is under pressure from an international client to make money because they are under pressure financially and could go out of business, resulting in the closure of several aid hospitals in Africa, and costing many people their jobs and knocking a hole in the medical care available in the region resulting in many infant deaths.

We each do things for our own reasons and have our own moral compass. Sometimes we are told to do things in our work place that we may not know are morally questionable. Sometimes we may know but the overall result of robbing Peter to pay Paul means less suffering.

Or it could be that the entire banking industry is filled with heartless cut throats who care naught for anything but making themselves money. If you beleive what you see in the news this is the case, but then the news often have an agenda and often misreport.

So I guess we each have to make our own minds up.

 

[porushinobu]

What about if you are a young trainee banker coming through the system and you are simply doing as your superiors instruct you without full awareness of the consequences?

The end result of a person losing their home is the same, but morally are you any less culpable?

But what if your boss is doing as he is told because his boss is threatening cuts to the workforce and your boss has a house and kids to look out for and does not want to risk losing his job and therefore his home?

What if your bosses boss is under pressure from an international client to make money because they are under pressure financially and could go out of business, resulting in the closure of several aid hospitals in Africa, and costing many people their jobs and knocking a hole in the medical care available in the region resulting in many infant deaths.

We each do things for our own reasons and have our own moral compass. Sometimes we are told to do things in our work place that we may not know are morally questionable. Sometimes we may know but the overall result of robbing Peter to pay Paul means less suffering.

Or it could be that the entire banking industry is filled with heartless cut throats who care naught for anything but making themselves money. If you beleive what you see in the news this is the case, but then the news often have an agenda and often misreport.

So I guess we each have to make our own minds up.

I am indeed well aware that the papers paint a rather incomplete picture, but what you state there is a lot of hypopheticals and with limited relevance to that last question and to me at the same time. However I am well aware of how much offices screw others to make certain people better off. Banks are by far not alone in their practices. The employees may not be willing to lose their jobs over such matters and a person of very high morals would avoid such a job to keep the guilt away.

I myself would only do such a thing as previously asked as I have already decideed that I would sacrafice anything and everything for a family I may one day have.

• Morals
• Money
• Freedom
• even my life

all of the above are secondary to the wellbeing of my potential family.

 

[RedvGreen]

I have done well for my self. I came out of school with one C... The rest were D's, F's or even below...

I'm oddly the highest paid out of all of my old class I think, worked in a stable career since I left college.

Further more to that, I have a career. I often bump into my old class buddies, all of which work in the likes of B&Q, McDonalds etc etc. Which is good for them, well done and all that. But whilst I wasted my time in school. Which is my biggest regret. I pulled my finger out and still managed to make a bloody good career from nothing more than hard work.

What annoys me is when people moan and bitch about having it hard and being in a tough life etc. **** off... So, because I'm on a high paid salary (£60k) I have it easy? I've been through some properly **** jobs to get some experience. Have spent countless nights up late working away and studying for stuff that I am interviewing for the next day. Chased, chased and chased again, multiple times to push on the front of wanting a job over the other guy. 10 years I've battled to be in the position I'm in.

And you know what, those from my school who went to uni with good grades, barely even earn a fraction of what I earn, have crap jobs as 'grads' where they are given **** work and generally don't have a career and are pushing 30...

So no, I don't think people are angry with the person doing well or vise versa. It's just thinking people on the other end of the stick have it easy. Yet in reality. We all have it hard, but I feel I've had it harder due to my own mistakes. But fought to bring my self to my dream goals.

Will I make my life goal of earning £100,000 by 40? I doubt it, but I will give it my best trying to get there.

Oh, my other goal was to have a long term job in the states... Guess what, I'm off to Boston this year for a 2 year contract. Luck? No, ****** hard work.

Goals, it's what drives me.

Good on you for achieving this. However your outrage is misplaced - there are those who just stumble upon power/control/money/assets who don't deserve or work for it (you should dislike them as much as everyone else, since they belittle your achievements too).

There are also people in society who work damned hard day in day out, giving blood, sweat, tears and, even, life in some cases. Their reward is the retention of their job. Some jobs like law enforcement offer very little scope for promotion if your face doesn't fit, but you have to do your utmost best every day or face disciplinary.

I'm currently faced (as I mentioned previously) with our CEO who is trying to hold everyone in our group down. Nationally we are on £10k higher, yet he is stonewalling us at every opportunity to make him look more efficient and cost saving-friendly because we are a relatively new team (3yrs in the making). When at work we do respect-worthy tasks and duties that very few can do, and work pretty much every day (inc. weekends) to complete the tasks set to us, but there is no reward. There is no progression and management are holding us down.

Our goals are for equality and fairness within our agency, but that will be a very long time coming.

 

[porushinobu]

here are also people in society who work damned hard day in day out, giving blood, sweat, tears and, even, life in some cases. Their reward is the retention of their job. Some jobs like law enforcement offer very little scope for promotion if your face doesn't fit, but you have to do your utmost best every day or face disciplinary.

yeah I am here, I work hard and dont even get opaid for my work, just get promises I will get my appropriate grade. But here I am on min wage, 3 grades below what I should earn, I work hard, harder than most of those around me, I fix some bloody hard issues and go beyond what my job description is only to get a well don from my TL and no news from HR regarding my pay.

 

[Haggisman]

Would you put another mans house and kids above your own if you had to make that choice?

If it was a matter of survival then no, but I'd probably look for another solution.

If the situation was "you've got no money problems, but here's a legal way of stealing £25k from another family, forcing them into destitution" then not a chance.

What about if you are a young trainee banker coming through the system and you are simply doing as your superiors instruct you without full awareness of the consequences?

The end result of a person losing their home is the same, but morally are you any less culpable?

I would never be stupid enough to work for a company with such a lack of morals, thereby avoiding being put in that position in the first place

But what if your boss is doing as he is told because his boss is threatening cuts to the workforce and your boss has a house and kids to look out for and does not want to risk losing his job and therefore his home?

What if your bosses boss is under pressure from an international client to make money because they are under pressure financially and could go out of business, resulting in the closure of several aid hospitals in Africa, and costing many people their jobs and knocking a hole in the medical care available in the region resulting in many infant deaths.

Well, these are silly hypotheticals.

Also, there's a world of difference between actively choosing to do something which is to the detriment of others, purely for personal gain, and ending up in an unfortunate situation and having to choose the lesser of 2 evils.

 

[RedvGreen]

What about if you are a young trainee banker coming through the system and you are simply doing as your superiors instruct you without full awareness of the consequences?

The end result of a person losing their home is the same, but morally are you any less culpable?

But what if your boss is doing as he is told because his boss is threatening cuts to the workforce and your boss has a house and kids to look out for and does not want to risk losing his job and therefore his home?

Vicarious liability.

 

[MB101]

So much hate for the noble profession of banking. This makes me sad.

 

[Zethor]

I'm a banker, why do you lads hate me?

 

[NVP]

Cuz they suck at playing the game

 

[BuffetSlayer]

I am indeed well aware that the papers paint a rather incomplete picture, but what you state there is a lot of hypopheticals and with limited relevance to that last question and to me at the same time. However I am well aware of how much offices screw others to make certain people better off. Banks are by far not alone in their practices. The employees may not be willing to lose their jobs over such matters and a person of very high morals would avoid such a job to keep the guilt away.

I myself would only do such a thing as previously asked as I have already decideed that I would sacrafice anything and everything for a family I may one day have.

• Morals
• Money
• Freedom
• even my life

all of the above are secondary to the wellbeing of my potential family.

That is where you draw your line.

Is it wrong that someone else should draw theirs in a different place?

Whilst my above examples are purposely exaggerated, it was an attempt to firstly show the different life situations of different people can lead to the same decisions and in the end the same result, and that people making these decisions are not necessarily cold hearted demons. It was also to show that invariably most people will choose their own lives and success/possessions/family/house over those of others.

Now earlier on you said you would prefer to see us working together as a species, yet here you say you would forsake all morals for the survival of your family (if you had one). That is presumably because you would place more importance on them than other people you earlier said you wanted to work together with.

If a person places the same importance you would place on your family on themselves, can you really criticize them for being immoral?

Why is doing it for your family more moral than doing it for yourself?

 

[BuffetSlayer]

If it was a matter of survival then no, but I'd probably look for another solution.

If the situation was "you've got no money problems, but here's a legal way of stealing £25k from another family, forcing them into destitution" then not a chance.



I would never be stupid enough to work for a company with such a lack of morals, thereby avoiding being put in that position in the first place



Well, these are silly hypotheticals.

Also, there's a world of difference between actively choosing to do something which is to the detriment of others, purely for personal gain, and ending up in an unfortunate situation and having to choose the lesser of 2 evils.

Perhaps you would not know about the dealings of your company in such depth, being a trainee and all. Do you think all those within the church were aware their establishment held shares in the dubious money lender Wonga?

But yes I completely agree there is a difference between being stuck between a rock and a hard place, and wantonly putting yourself first to the detriment of others.

But as I asked in the post above, why is immoral behaviour in the one situation seen as more acceptable than the other?

Edit: I should note that the entire discussion on morals is hypothetical as none of us really know for sure what we would do in a situation until it arises.