Why are some people so against others doing well

[Schlong&Stable]

You are still failing to admit how much chance & good/bad luck impact on an individual's chance to succeed in life.

Luck is not a factor. We're not shooting blindly into the dark when we make life choices, well... not according to the neighbours anyway.

Anyway, my point is that people too easily say 'oh I just had bad luck" which is just a way of evading responsibility.

 

[Baron C]

Luck is not a factor. We're not shooting blindly into the dark when we make life choices, well... not according to the neighbours anyway.

Anyway, my point is that people too easily say 'oh I just had bad luck" which is just a way of evading responsibility.

I agree with you and have in my time argued the same. Call it luck or randomness.
Although, there is also a fair example to the contrary. Even a directed shot has the ability to miss because of unforseen or unknowable factors.

You have 100 monkeys, all the same in ability and quality. Which one do you pick to be the showcase at your zoo and pull in the crowds?

 

[Tefal]

This is true,

I've been on JSA, I know what it can be like. I've seen the bottom of the pile and I had no money to do ANYTHING really (I could have afforded a book or 2 here and there though). I don't smoke nor do I drink, I just used the little money I had to at least try to eat healthy (totally blargh diet but I made it work just lots of veg etc and I don't eat meat)

That's why I'm so thankful piracy exists, without it I would have been screwed.

because piracy meant you at least had something to do with your landline, internet, pc and tv while you had no money for anythi....wait a minute!!

 

[Tefal]

Not to mention that as mentioned above, you have to take into account that our society requires people at the bottom - no amount of 'hard work' can make a society of millionaires unless we change our entire economic model.

what part of society specifically requires the long term unemployed?

 

[anything I don't mind]

I also blame the obsession with equality in schools. They don't reward success, they reward failure to prevent some from appearing successful. There is that whole culture in the school system where they try and make out as if everyone is equal, when they are not. Some are better than others and they just don't want to admit that. This means that when they get older they don't take responsibility for their life, they blame the lack of opportunities or luck. As in school they were given the opportunities even if they were not good at it. In the real world if you are not good at it, you don't get hired and they not being taught that life lesson because the school system is too scared to treat people differently based on merit.

 

[Tefal]

might be an effective stratagey tough

"have you worked less than 9 months in the past two years without an approved reason? (Illness, disability, living off your own wealth)

then you're up for the firing squad, get against the wall!"


unthinkable but you do gotta wonder just what would happen if you ran that policy for say a decade.

 

[elmarko]

I'm not failing to admit it, I never denied it.

You're misunderstanding nearly everything I'm typing. I'm pointing out that good and bad luck shouldn't be a reason to change how society works to try and level the playing field for everyone involved.

I fundamentally disagree.

The fact we have no real equality of opportunity negates the main justifications used for punitive (or at least no support) for those who fail due to environment, poor role models or just bad luck.

I've done well in life, but I can't take credit for the absence of factors which could have prevented it - neither can I take credit for possessing skills & abilities which came as a result of having the upbringing I needed to succeed.

Luck is not a factor. We're not shooting blindly into the dark when we make life choices, well... not according to the neighbours anyway.

Anyway, my point is that people too easily say 'oh I just had bad luck" which is just a way of evading responsibility.

Denying the impact of good or bad luck is delusional.

 

[Tefal]

I've done well in life, but I can't take credit for the absence of factors which could have prevented it - neither can I take credit for possessing skills & abilities which came as a result of having the upbringing I needed to succeed.

the implication there being anyone with your upbringing would have developed the same skills and abilities, an utterly lazy person may have made none of the choices you did nor took any advantage offered.

a violent person may have thrown the chance away by being expelled from school repeatedly before ending up in young offenders.

You're you because of the choices you made not because the environment you made them in.

 

[spoffle]

I fundamentally disagree.

The fact we have no real equality of opportunity negates the main justifications used for punitive (or at least no support) for those who fail due to environment, poor role models or just bad luck.

I've done well in life, but I can't take credit for the absence of factors which could have prevented it - neither can I take credit for possessing skills & abilities which came as a result of having the upbringing I needed to succeed.

I think this is because you're putting far more thought in to this than is needed.

The vast majority of people do have equality of opportunity, some people don't do well for things like having parents who aren't very good.

That sort of thing isn't something to legislate against, because then the state starts controlling nearly every aspect of people's lives.

What you seem to think is right and just is just not at all realistic on a societal level, it's not even idealistic.

Society is kind of going the opposite way at the moment, with the way in schools, as the other guy mentioned, kids are almost rewarded or praised for not winning. When all kids get medals and certificates regardless of how well they've done, it makes for a very poor environment and I believe breeds somewhat of an entitlement complex, because these people are going to enter the real world, and then be hit with shock when they aren't being praised and rewarded for anything they do.

 

[elmarko]

the implication there being anyone with your upbringing would have developed the same skills and abilities, an utterly lazy person may have made none of the choices you did nor took any advantage offered.

a violent person may have thrown the chance away by being expelled from school repeatedly before ending up in young offenders.

You're you because of the choices you made not because the environment you made them in.

This is the problem with the whole free-will debate - most of the population have already assumed they are correct (when no evidence exists to support it). A 'lazy' person (it's not a good term, you never hear psychologists use it) lacks motivation for a series of reasons - all of which have causal factors associated with them.

A lucky person simply avoided those causal factors which enabled them to utilise the skills available to them.

I think this is because you're putting far more thought in to this than is needed.

Quite the opposite, people are failing to put in the thought require & are viewing complex human behaviour from the perspective of an intellectual reductionist.

The vast majority of people do have equality of opportunity, some people don't do well for things like having parents who aren't very good

That sort of thing isn't something to legislate against, because then the state starts controlling nearly every aspect of people's lives.

You are missing the point (still), if you can't legislate against a lack of equality of opportunity (I'd also like some evidence to backup your assertion that a vast majority do, I've yet to see anything which remotely supports this) then I'd argue you can simply reduce the impact of it - you don't have to 'control anything' this is just some paranoia regarding government control.

What you seem to think is right and just is just not at all realistic on a societal level, it's not even idealistic.

Society is kind of going the opposite way at the moment, with the way in schools, as the other guy mentioned, kids are almost rewarded or praised for not winning. When all kids get medals and certificates regardless of how well they've done, it makes for a very poor environment and I believe breeds somewhat of an entitlement complex, because these people are going to enter the real world, and then be hit with shock when they aren't being praised and rewarded for anything they do.

It's nothing about idealism - it's simply the recognition of reality.

The self-esteem movement in the USA (which bled over here) was poor science to begin with (which is related to the 'everybody is a winner' issue & has absolutely nothing to do with mitigating against the impact of the lack of equality of opportunity.

 

[spoffle]

Denying the impact of good or bad luck is delusional.

You seem to be borderline strawmanning every post you respond to in this thread. What's up with that?

 

[spoffle]

This is the problem with the whole free-will debate - most of the population have already assumed they are correct (when no evidence exists to support it). A 'lazy' person (it's not a good term, you never hear psychologists use it) lacks motivation for a series of reasons - all of which have causal factors associated with them.

A lucky person simply avoided those causal factors which enabled them to utilise the skills available to them.

Luck doesn't really exist in the form you're suggesting though.

 

[Tefal]

This is the problem with the whole free-will debate - most of the population have already assumed they are correct (when no evidence exists to support it). A 'lazy' person (it's not a good term, you never hear psychologists use it) lacks motivation for a series of reasons - all of which have causal factors associated with them.

A lucky person simply avoided those causal factors which enabled them to utilise the skills available to them.

not necessarily some of them are inherent character flaws.

take me

objectively speaking for the "average" person i was handed possibly the best start in life you could ask for and i have squandered practically every opportunity and wasted countless chances.

my brother who id say is about the same as me except for the fact he is more dedicated and willing to put effort into studies is now a doctor and does mountain rescue in his part time.

I'm a bum doing manual labour.


same opportunity very different outcome based purely on our levels of motivations.

our parents were the bridge between their working class parents(arguably both my parents parents were poor) and what i would say we became comfortable middle class.

with my brother taking on the advantage and moving up even more significantly to a respected and well paid role, where as i have regressed and fall back into working class of skilled labour.



We had equality of opportunity, same school same parents same opportunities, we have very different outcomes.

 

[anything I don't mind]

I fundamentally disagree.

The fact we have no real equality of opportunity negates the main justifications used for punitive (or at least no support) for those who fail due to environment, poor role models or just bad luck.

I've done well in life, but I can't take credit for the absence of factors which could have prevented it - neither can I take credit for possessing skills & abilities which came as a result of having the upbringing I needed to succeed.

Denying the impact of good or bad luck is delusional.

How can you say that? Everyone has the same opportunities in state education for at least the last 30 years. People can't use that as an excuse any more. The state education has been all about equality and equal opportunities and now we can see the results.

 

[elmarko]

You seem to be borderline strawmanning every post you respond to in this thread. What's up with that?

Can you even read?.

If you could point out the straw-man below I'd really really love to see it.

Luck is not a factor. We're not shooting blindly into the dark when we make life choices, well... not according to the neighbours anyway.

Anyway, my point is that people too easily say 'oh I just had bad luck" which is just a way of evading responsibility.

Denying the impact of good or bad luck is delusional.

 

[Tefal]

Can you even read?.

If you could point out the straw-man below I'd really really love to see it.

Denying the impact of good or bad luck is delusional.

Luck is simply circumstances you did not foresee.

whether they are to your favor or not is typically irrelevant if you're looking at the decisions before them.

 

[spoffle]

Can you even read?.

If you could point out the straw-man below I'd really really love to see it.

Denying the impact of good or bad luck is delusional.

Oh lawd, now you're being arsey.

You seem to be strawmanning nearly every post you respond to, which is what I said.

You're responding to things in isolation, or changing the context of them with your reply.

When you add the other part about making life choices, it makes sense as to what's being said. However you've chosen to just look at "Luck is not a factor" and call it delusional.

 

[anything I don't mind]

The other reasons for this anti-capitalist something for nothing attitude, as well as the ones i have already mentioned, ie state education. Is the breakup of the family and the feminisation of education, which is leaving boys behind. So many more children than ever before have grown up without a dad in the house (mine left when i was 14). Some people suggest that it is the father figures in the house that instil discipline and a sense of ambition. So not only do we have more children growing up without father figures than ever before in history, we also have an education system that in the last 30 years has been geared towards helping women exceed at the expense of boys. Add all these factors together and the result is lots of people that lack a work ethic but expect a high standard of living.

 

[elmarko]

not necessarily some of them are inherent character flaws.

take me

objectively speaking for the "average" person i was handed possibly the best start in life you could ask for and i have squandered practically every opportunity and wasted countless chances.

my brother who id say is about the same as me except for the fact he is more dedicated and willing to put effort into studies is now a doctor and does mountain rescue in his part time.

I'm a bum doing manual labour.


same opportunity very different outcome based purely on our levels of motivations.

our parents were the bridge between their working class parents(arguably both my parents parents were poor) and what i would say we became comfortable middle class.

with my brother taking on the advantage and moving up even more significantly to a respected and well paid role, where as i have regressed and fall back into working class of skilled labour.



We had equality of opportunity, same school same parents same opportunities, we have very different outcomes.

I've heard this argument before & it's missing one key point.

Having the same upbringing isn't the same as having equality of opportunity. Each individual child requires a different parental strategy, some need a lighter touch & others more discipline. If child A requires a soft touch & child B harsher parents - only one of those two are going to do brilliantly in life.

Did they have an equal upbringing? (when in reality one was tailored for the child - the other was not).

Oh lawd, now you're being arsey.

You seem to be strawmanning nearly every post you respond to, which is what I said.

You're responding to things in isolation, or changing the context of them with your reply.

When you add the other part about making life choices, it makes sense as to what's being said. However you've chosen to just look at "Luck is not a factor" and call it delusional.

Apologies, it seems when a person says "Luck is not a factor" I took that as meaning that luck wasn't a factor. If he really meant "Luck IS a factor" then I can see my mistake, but as you say - it's clearly a massive straw man.

 

[v0n]

Private schooling system works on exact opposite model, doesn't it? Eaton. Go out of your comfort zone, learn to compete, try harder, excel, bind with your competitors as friends for life, push each other to do greater things, pull each other up the leader. 19 Prime Ministers out of one and the same school. Works?