Why are you not vegan....

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Combat squirrel said:
I've heard this before - its absolutely crazy that you, and others, draw a comparison between a mammal & plants, using a plants chemical response as justification for killing a living breathing mammal - you're just deflecting the uncomfortable truth of slitting a mammals throat and it then dying is the worst hell like event to live through (and then die shortly after), its quite literally as unpleasant as you imagine it would be if I did that to you.

Plants, as proven by science, don't have a "pain" response, they have a 'the plant is being attacked' response, its certainly not pain as you feel it.

As you're clearly not too up on science - let me help you, if it moves around, under its own power, it feels pain, if it grows via sunlight, entirely different, no real pain response - and yes crabs do feel pain, as do lobsters.
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Where was this proven by science? I just read an article on Yahoo Answers that said that plants scream when you cut them.
 
The fact that animals are hunted by other animals and we are animals is enough to satisfy me of my choices. That said, you can exist on a vegetarian diet really well (not vegan though as eggs and so on are just SO good for you). And many societies are vegetarian, now that could be owing to socio-economic reasons, or cultural, it doesn't matter.

I don't think even human so called "carnivores" would want an animal to be tortured or killed in a bad way - I think the push for higher standards is definitely the right thing. That will also push the price up which may turn more people to vegetarianism. which I guess creates a 2-tier society again.

Problem is in America for example GM crops are legal in the States, and I don't really feel comfortable with that, nor do I feel their use of hormones in animals is suitable either. I'm more interested in quality and welfare - admittedly that's a little contradictory if we're killing the animal, but I'd rather eat an animal that's had a good life than not.

Then I guess we come to, lab grown meat... would a vegan/vegetarian support that? Problem is it's going to be processed/artificial - even if it's sustainable it doesn't fill me with comfort. Our bodies are designed to be able to eat both meat and plants, but when you start to create "fake" meat (that is effectively flesh that hasn't been killed) I wonder if it really is all that beneficial. That said it would solve the moral dilemma of killing animals - but could cause some health issues (our evolution takes thousands and thousands of years - so what the impact of artificial meat will have is impossible to tell), but at the same time could be revolutionary. And if a juicy burger is as tasty and/or no worse for you than real meat... then it's win win. We would have to be very careful on the interaction of lab grown meats on the human body though, and it would have to be cost effective too.
 
godinman said:
I've just finished the last of some ethical halal burgers, they had been stunned first (the cow, not the burgers) and I have no problems eating them. Not something I would buy as I'm not religious so the expense is pointless, but no problems otherwise. This was outdoor reared, grass fed and killed at a relatively small abetoir, it probably had a better life/death than most non halal beef.
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Yeah well it was stunned, once it is stunned it doesn't matter how they kill it really. But non stunned killing is totally different.
 
Combat squirrel said:
I've heard this before - its absolutely crazy that you, and others, draw a comparison between a mammal & plants, using a plants chemical response as justification for killing a living breathing mammal - you're just deflecting the uncomfortable truth of slitting a mammals throat and it then dying is the worst hell like event to live through (and then die shortly after), its quite literally as unpleasant as you imagine it would be if I did that to you.

Plants, as proven by science, don't have a "pain" response, they have a 'the plant is being attacked' response, its certainly not pain as you feel it.

As you're clearly not too up on science - let me help you, if it moves around, under its own power, it feels pain, if it grows via sunlight, entirely different, no real pain response - and yes crabs do feel pain, as do lobsters.
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You have made so many assumptions based on your beliefs same as any religious zealot would. Aside from that you need to read the latest research on mushrooms, which do indeed have a pain response and communicate with other shrooms.

So please give us all your human definition of pain.....
 
Yeah exactly, like if you want to cut off your own legs, have wheels put on and self identify as a pram, then you're free to do so. But that doesn't give you the right to demand everyone do it because the thought of people not living with wheels instead of legs makes you feel sad, and then start calling everyone else "uneducated" because you think in 100 years time everyone will have wheels instead of legs.
 
Freefaller said:
The fact that animals are hunted by other animals and we are animals is enough to satisfy me of my choices.
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Doesn't make sense, the fact countless animals are vegan isn't good enough for you then ? Same logic.

My own morality is simple - If I wouldn't like something done to me, I don't do it to something else, really is that simple.

Pain, is universal, you don't need a higher ape brain to understand it - hurt any animal or living creature, it will clearly & obviously respond in pain, so, I don't wish to inflict any pain on any one, or other species.
 
Combat squirrel said:
Doesn't make sense, the fact countless animals are vegan isn't good enough for you then ? Same logic.

My own morality is simple - If I wouldn't like something done to me, I don't do it to something else, really is that simple.

Pain, is universal, you don't need a higher ape brain to understand it - hurt any animal or living creature, it will clearly & obviously respond in pain, so, I don't wish to inflict any pain on any one, or other species.
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The vegan animals, say...the Koala, they have evolved to live on that diet. There is nothing else can survive eating on the same diet as they can. Just because the Koala eats those leaves all day....it doesn't mean you will too, or can. Your stomach simply isn't evolved to digest it.

That's the counter logic for vegan animals. Evolution.

Humans have eaten meat for thousands of years, and cooked meat too. There are studies that suggests around the same time our brains got larger is when we started eating cooked meat and about the time when we started to evolved to be smarter and moved out of caves.

Animals who eat other animals (or they don't eat other animals), don't base their diet on morals. Morality is NOT in the equation. People who eat meat simply say we are following the rule of the animal kingdom. Vegans want to add in this rule which doesn't exist for anything else. Which is fine, you can apply morals to YOUR diet. Don't apply to a lion and please do apply it to mine.
 
Combat squirrel said:
Doesn't make sense, the fact countless animals are vegan isn't good enough for you then ? Same logic.

My own morality is simple - If I wouldn't like something done to me, I don't do it to something else, really is that simple.

Pain, is universal, you don't need a higher ape brain to understand it - hurt any animal or living creature, it will clearly & obviously respond in pain, so, I don't wish to inflict any pain on any one, or other species.
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Wow.... This is more mental that all the previous vegans.


How did you come to this lifestyle?
Religion? Ex slaughter house employee?


I mean that is hardcore budist to the max.
 
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Combat squirrel said:
Doesn't make sense, the fact countless animals are vegan isn't good enough for you then ? Same logic.

My own morality is simple - If I wouldn't like something done to me, I don't do it to something else, really is that simple.

Pain, is universal, you don't need a higher ape brain to understand it - hurt any animal or living creature, it will clearly & obviously respond in pain, so, I don't wish to inflict any pain on any one, or other species.
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I get no pleasure out of killing animals (I've done it), but I do get pleasure out of eating them. Maybe you're right and I've been conditioned to eat meat, but biologically I know it's also part of human make up.

There are predators and prey in nature, it's not pleasant but it's the way it is. Now I agree, perhaps we should evolve to minimise our food from prey, and as a family we've reduced our meat intake, and focus solely on high quality fish and meat (i.e. local farms and fish mongers). Does that make it okay? From your perspective, of course not, but from a "trying to do better" perspective, yes, we don't have meat every day now as a result.

Pain is universal, however as the top of the food chain, we should be able to "hunt" without inflicting pain - which I think in general we do in Europe. Though as you would argue (quite rightly) perhaps we shouldn't need to hunt any more at all. It's tough. I don't believe we've been conditioned to eat meat, from what I've read biologically it's a fairly normal thing for us to do. That said, we can have a well rounded diet with less meat - 1/5th of the world don't eat meat. However I think that's not entirely cultural but an affordability thing.

I will agree that we should reduce our meat intake, but also we should ultimately focus on higher quality environment for animals regardless.

krooton said:
If the biology is sound, I see no issues with lab grown meat.
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I agree - but it would have to be cost effective but also safe - if it's a like for like replica that is indistinguishable then I'll be right beside you in line for it as well.
 
Combat squirrel said:
Well, yeah, you did ask. Ignorance is choosing to look the other way (which you must do if you allow something to die so you can eat), and its not very nice saying its ok to slaughter stuff because you emotionally enjoy the taste.

No need to be vague about it, its directly that, unless you can convince me that some how zero slaughter happens, nothing dies, and its all a big hoax (Aside from the endless video evidence, and I have sadly seen a cow being slaughtered myself, its grim, as grim as an episode of The Boys)
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I think you miss the point that I am OK with it, and most people are. We farm animals for our consumption. I would prefer we do it humanly though. The only willful ignorance is not going hunting for evidence of cruelty. I'm still OK with slaughtering of animals though.

It would take a massive cultural shift to ever end the cycle. Man has always hunted. It's in our DNA to to eat meat. Our bodies are built for it.

I don't feel guilt eating meat. I won't apologize, nor should I. The only part that we should change is how animals are kept and slaughtered. We have an issue of there being so many people now that they are just treated like a product on a conveyer belt with no compassion for the end of their life.

As a society, I do suspect we consume too much meat though. Reduction may improve overall health and reduce the conveyor approach of animal slaughter somewhat.
 
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