Why are you not vegan....

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Caporegime
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a lot of the pastures will need to be turned into lab meat factories and arable land to provide whatever protein source is needed to make the lab meat - I'm not sure that's much better. Those pasture lands won't be turned back into natural forests/grasslands etc.

Yes but we all know it would be a vastly more efficient use of space.
You could use barren land, you can go upwards.
Once it's cheaper it will more efficient.
It's already happening. I expect in my lifetime animal farming in the west will have dropped dramatically.
 
Caporegime
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Could someone link this methane is worse if you're vegan?

Because I'd like to know if it takes into account the variables that are often missed (on both sides of the argument) in a lot of studies
 
Associate
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I'm not denying that. Change happens slowly. We got rid of slavery slowly. We changed from walking to cars slowly.
Biologically we evolve very very slowly.

Nothing changes overnight. But the drive to change to a more vegan way of life is surely a good aim?

I think it's fair to say that it's already happening, no?

We certainly have more vegetarians and vegans on the planet now than ever before. Just in the same way people are "evolving" towards EV's over ICE. But it takes time. More importantly, it takes the right message and this is where it falls down.

So many of the arguments in favor of change revolve around the use of emotive imagery and wording, picking only the worst-of-the-worst (often not even from this country) in an attempt to back-up their message. Use of terms such as "murder" to attempt to illicit an emotional response from a person, rather than a well thought out, considered response from the more reasoned areas of the brain, less driven by emotion and reaction to "shocking" images etc.. This is the problem. Could you imagine if every EV owner went around berating and belittling ICE drivers the way many vegans do towards meat-eaters?

Instead look at the "message" being used to encourage people to switch. Free (or super cheap) charging... Road tax discounts etc... Incentives and positive messages, not belittlement and accusations of murder.
 
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Caporegime
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What if the vegan diet didn't have physical pills? But was fortified? This is obviously very common in many foods? Even layers are given extra additives to colour the yolk.

I rather not, because our understanding of our body is constantly shifting by what we know yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Remember we used to think fat is bad, i mean all fat is bad. That was out thinking. now we know some fats are good, some are bad and there is a balance.

I remember when Linford Christy, Dally Gunnel and Colin Jackson did an ad for bread, saying bread is great and we should ear more bread. Now we know too much carbs isn’t good either. How can I be 100% sure these fortified added ingredients is what our body really need and in those quantities?

What i am saying is that we don’t know or understand everything the body needs or even what is 100% good for us. All I know is that and the proof to me is that people in the Med and Japanese live the longest, and that their diet should be the one we should do more. And that they are not vegan.
 
Caporegime
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I think it's fair to say that it's already happening, no?

We certainly have more vegetarians and vegans on the planet now than ever before. Just in the same way people are "evolving" towards EV's over ICE. But it takes time. More importantly, it takes the right message and this is where it falls down.

So many of the arguments in favor of change revolve around the use of emotive imagery and wording, picking only the worst-of-the-worst (often not even from this country) in an attempt to back-up their message. Use of terms such as "murder" to attempt to illicit an emotional response from a person, rather than a well thought out, considered response from the more reasoned areas of the brain, less driven by emotion and reaction to "shocking" images etc.. This is the problem. Could you imagine if every EV owner went around berating and belittling ICE drivers the way many vegans do towards meat-eaters?

Oh I agree with you. It's ridiculous what militant vegans do. It's counter to their cause. Even to other vegans for not being vegan enough.

I agree change is happening.

I'm more in this thread to question peoples statements than push "you are a murderer for not being vegan"
 
Caporegime
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I rather not, because our understanding of our body is constantly shifting by what we know yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Remember we used to think fat is bad, i mean all fat is bad. That was out thinking. now we know some fats are good, some are bad and there is a balance.

I remember when Linford Christy, Dally Gunnel and Colin Jackson did an ad for bread, saying bread is great and we should ear more bread. Now we know too much carbs isn’t good either. How can I be 100% sure these fortified added ingredients is what our body really need and in those quantities?

What i am saying is that we don’t know or understand everything the body needs or even what is 100% good for us. All I know is that and the proof to me is that people in the Med and Japanese live the longest, and that their diet should be the one we should do more. And that they are not vegan.

I agree.
The diet issue isn't one I really comment on as it's always changing. Veganism today could be really unhealthy. Or the opposite. It's a moving target as science professes.

Why I admire vegans isn't diet or health. It's animal suffering and second environmental
 
Caporegime
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Should thank the meat-eaters for the resulting selective breeding and taming of wild cows... some Germans tried to re-breed the wild ancestors of the modern cow and they're rather aggressive:


Nazi super cows: British farmer forced to destroy half his murderous herd of bio-engineered Heck cows after they try to kill staff​

They became so aggressive a UK farmer was forced to turn half of them into sausages​

 
Soldato
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Could someone link this methane is worse if you're vegan?

Because I'd like to know if it takes into account the variables that are often missed (on both sides of the argument) in a lot of studies

The methane argument is something, but as someone whose PhD is aimed at taking methane and converting it, we'd benefit more from cleaning up our act with associated natural gas flaring, leaking natural gas lines and the rotting stuff that releases methane in our landfills. Here's something from last year.

Plus the whole idea of lab-grown meat doesn't really appeal to me. I don't get the fascination with trying to replicate food by massively over processing other food or ingredients. If I want a veggie burger, mashing up some veg and beans, before seasoning it and cooking it well is plenty good enough. Just reminds me of the South Park episode where Cartman realises its all processed food and starts eating it too.
 
Soldato
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Just reminds me of the South Park episode where Cartman realises its all processed food and starts eating it too.

if i recall correctly doesn't he do the opposite?, he scribbles "beyond" onto a kfc bargain bucket and starts feeding it to his girlfriend under the pretense it's a vegan alternative.
 
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Soldato
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The vegan animals, say...the Koala, they have evolved to live on that diet. There is nothing else can survive eating on the same diet as they can. Just because the Koala eats those leaves all day....it doesn't mean you will too, or can. Your stomach simply isn't evolved to digest it.

That's the counter logic for vegan animals. Evolution.

Humans have eaten meat for thousands of years, and cooked meat too. There are studies that suggests around the same time our brains got larger is when we started eating cooked meat and about the time when we started to evolved to be smarter and moved out of caves.

Animals who eat other animals (or they don't eat other animals), don't base their diet on morals. Morality is NOT in the equation. People who eat meat simply say we are following the rule of the animal kingdom. Vegans want to add in this rule which doesn't exist for anything else. Which is fine, you can apply morals to YOUR diet. Don't apply to a lion and please do apply it to mine.

It seems many on this forum think they are scientists - are you ? I hold 2 degrees, one full science based, the other in IT.

I say this, because you're simply wrong, quite obvious evidence - I mean, really simple stuff a 10 year old can understand, shows we evolved for a primarily plant based diet - just as nearly all apes only eat plants (some are very occasional omnivore, but still have a 99% plant based diet)

Let me break it down for you (I'm still blown away you think we are evolved to eat meat, you must have a weird minds eye of a human)

1) Very long intestinal tract, all carnivores are 4-6x shorter than a human
2) Plant grinding teeth, no teeth evolved to tear flesh (as all carnivores are)
3) There is nothing in any meat diet humans NEED, we however do need about a dozen amino acids and other molecules that are all and ONLY found in plants (ergo we need plants to live, meat contains not molecules we need to survive)
4) B12 is the by product of bacteria found in soil, humans previously got this from drinking non sterile water. In fact most meat these days has it injected in to the animals as most factory farmed animals drink tap water also.

Morality is in the equation for a human, because we are mentally capable of it - indeed a huge amount of animals show the ability for compassion and empathy also.

This reply is beyond 'opinion' now, as its all literal fact, you can reply if you wish, but the science shows the human body is by far and away 99.9% setup for plants, only. Sure we can digest meat, but it's not what we a biologically designed for. We can be omnivores but the evolution of 'us' is simply plant based.

Gorillas are plant based, and several times stronger and more robust than you, me, or any other humans, I just like to point that out for fun when some 'hard man' meat eater says we 'need' meat to be big and strong - ok pal, go punch a vegan Gorilla in the face and see what happens! lol
 
Soldato
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You have made so many assumptions based on your beliefs same as any religious zealot would. Aside from that you need to read the latest research on mushrooms, which do indeed have a pain response and communicate with other shrooms.

So please give us all your human definition of pain.....

People like yourself baffle me, you make flat out accusations and F up your own point, you're obviously referring to mycelial networks, which are mostly in place to transport nutrients, water and other things a collection of fungi require to sustain their 'colony' - to compare that to a mammalian brain is utterly bonkers, you can't even in hour own head figure out the difference between plant networks & specific nervous tissue, thus do I waste my time explaining it you ?

You won't agree anyway, as you're taking your total misunderstanding of something and using it as an excuse to eat meat *face palm.jpg*
 
Soldato
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^ He actually believes humans are herbivores, you can't argue with such an entrenched view best to just ignore him.

I don't have 'beliefs' its literally right there in front of you - look at your own body! lol, how do you explain that to someone who refuses to believe whats there - its really quite obvious, can't you even attempt to explain our majorly long intestinal tracts then? - or just going to ignore this and many other facts? lol

Entire argument based around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy nice one Combat_Squirrel

I mean, its hilarious really, I'm seeing this going on CONSTANTLY in this thread by meat eaters? But no one pulls them up on it (if they agree with you) - like, I have already explain not only using science but pretty OBVIOUS logic why humans are clearly evolved to eat plants, no one cares - people are even trying to 'prove' plants and mushrooms feel pain like an animal does :cry::cry::cry::cry:

That's total biased brain washing right there, they are either being sarcastic or genuinely believe it - its incredibly disturbing to justify killing conscious animals for food - it makes me wonder what else in life such people 'excuse'
 
Caporegime
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It seems many on this forum think they are scientists - are you ? I hold 2 degrees, one full science based, the other in IT.

I say this, because you're simply wrong, quite obvious evidence - I mean, really simple stuff a 10 year old can understand, shows we evolved for a primarily plant based diet - just as nearly all apes only eat plants (some are very occasional omnivore, but still have a 99% plant based diet)

Let me break it down for you (I'm still blown away you think we are evolved to eat meat, you must have a weird minds eye of a human)

1) Very long intestinal tract, all carnivores are 4-6x shorter than a human
2) Plant grinding teeth, no teeth evolved to tear flesh (as all carnivores are)
3) There is nothing in any meat diet humans NEED, we however do need about a dozen amino acids and other molecules that are all and ONLY found in plants (ergo we need plants to live, meat contains not molecules we need to survive)
4) B12 is the by product of bacteria found in soil, humans previously got this from drinking non sterile water. In fact most meat these days has it injected in to the animals as most factory farmed animals drink tap water also.

Morality is in the equation for a human, because we are mentally capable of it - indeed a huge amount of animals show the ability for compassion and empathy also.

This reply is beyond 'opinion' now, as its all literal fact, you can reply if you wish, but the science shows the human body is by far and away 99.9% setup for plants, only. Sure we can digest meat, but it's not what we a biologically designed for. We can be omnivores but the evolution of 'us' is simply plant based.

Gorillas are plant based, and several times stronger and more robust than you, me, or any other humans, I just like to point that out for fun when some 'hard man' meat eater says we 'need' meat to be big and strong - ok pal, go punch a vegan Gorilla in the face and see what happens! lol

I don't need a science degree to say this, YET AGAIN, the Japanese have a 120mil population and they eat meat and they live the longest.

What scientific fact can dispute that?

You can't.

Your 1% is your flaw...btw, I probably consume like 5% meat in my diet by weight, if that. I don't consum like 99% meat and 1% veg.

Also, try not be so arrogant about your degree, it's already out of date by the time you graduate. Science is not a fixed target, it is a moving target, you should be humble enough to know that much and not trying to use it like a sword. Just because you have a science degree doesn't mean you are a doctor....are you a doctor? I mean I really should be speaking to my doctor about my diet, not an internet forum...
 
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