Why are you not vegan....

[Johno please?]

Well I did skim read some, but failed to see anything compelling.

1. Absolutely we can survive - but very limited long range data and already a mounting evidence of impacts (most interestingly neurological impacts)
2. What are you dribbling about?? (Apart from proving point one) - I enjoy the taste of meat, not kicking dogs.
3. You neither understand suffering or pain - both are neuroscientific phenomena and thus are entirely cognitive. It's literally the meaning of the word and thus it's everything to do with cognitive ability. Ie if I literally have no developed hippocampus, then I cannot remember. If my Broca's region is undeveloped, then I can't talk. Therefore animals without humanlike frontal lobes (ie all of them), cannot possibly conceptualise and thus experience pain like we can. You do realise trees can transmit simple pain signals - assume you're going to stop eating plants too....?
4. Agree re processing, but much easier to eat an unprocessed normal diet than a vegan one which requires packing of lots of missing essential elements, oils, vitamins etc
5. Again I don't know where you invented this from - I didn't say anything about us being like lions, my point was that the average farm is vastly more humane than average nature and animals fear responses rank vastly lower in farms than in nature. Every single animal gets killed, exploited etc. Even drinking milk happens in nature - so it's all 'natural', even if for some quasi-religious reason you are considering humans not a part of nature.

Beyond all this, I think you're conflating different things - I'm all for better animal welfare and think we need to do more here, but literally 100% of animals are eaten in nature and the majority die in ways few humans would tolerate.

Good farms are huge improvements on nature in terms of animal welfare, so I'm quite happy to use their meat rather than leave it to the worms...

Well then you didn't read enough because your non original arguments have been made and rebutted already.

Limited data? ok, except for the studies done by oxford university and the academy of nutrition and dietetics and the millions of vegans who have been on plant based diets for decades.... I don't miss any essential nutrients, the only thing I cant get from plants is B12.

Yes and I enjoy the sound a dog makes when I kick it. Does that make it ok?

Do animals feel pain or not? of course they do, all the evidence says yes. Plants do not feel pain like an animal does they have no central nervous system or brain, I thought you were studying for a degree? Can you get a refund?

Not sure if you're aware but cows milk is not for humans, its for baby cows xD (probably explains why so many people cant handle the lactose)

"Good farms" Most people buy there meat from factory farmed animals, these "good farms" make up a tiny percentage, and regardless of how well theyre treated theyre still killed at a fraction of their life.

Sometimes yes, if people are careful about things like B12 deficiency etc. some obvious risks, especially with young children:

B12 is something we should all be aware of, just vegans that little bit more. One of my other halfs colleagues is B12 deficient, I said jokingly "is she vegan", because I knew she wasnt, could be a number of reasons though.

And like ive said already most people probably supplement B12 anyway due to a lot of animals not being raised outside on grass so needing the supplement themselves.

 

[Raymond Lin]

The default position of a vegan is that an animal is a victim, you could say because of us thrusting our life style and perspective on them

When you look at things from the perspective of an animal being an individual, sentient being, that wants to avoid harm and can experience pleasure, then you can start to understand a bit more of where they are coming from.

What your essentially saying is "my taste pleasure is more important than the life of that pig or that cow". I do think most wouldn't be OK with caring for an animal and then waking up one morning and slitting it's throat for a ham sandwich.

Having been vegan for many months and done a lot of reading I completely get their position. It's very admirable that they take the view that animals should not be abused or killed. Obviously it's way more nuanced, hence why I am not vegan. But I won't eat a pig, just like I won't eat my dog.

I know all that and my rebuttal is that I got the luck of the lottery to be born as a human.

I guess I could go jump off a building before dinner so that i don't consume any more resources if it makes the vegans happier? I get their position, what I don't get is where do they get their high horse.

OP has been a vegan for like a month and a half, having been a meat eater for decades...

Not to mention, they will NEVER, EVER achieve their goal if their goal is to convert the entire world as vegans. Or is their goal to have less animal suffer?

 

[pooley]

Haha this thread takes me back. I was eating a strict 'vegan' diet a few years ago, the same old stuff is being discussed here. I manged about four years before my health really suffered, I continued that long as I was way too dogmatic about it.
I started eating animal foods again to reverse my failing health.

We as Homo sapiens have been eating meat for millions of years it is our species specific diet, the science is in on this. The N14/15 isotope testing proves this unequivocally, heck we don't even need carbohydrates thanks to Gluconeogenesis.

Plants contain various toxins lectins, oxalates saponins etc but yet we are told that are healthy, Eat your meat people forget all the noise and get on with your life lol

 

[LiE]

I know all that and my rebuttal is that I got the luck of the lottery to be born as a human.

I guess I could go jump off a building before dinner so that i don't consume any more resources if it makes the vegans happier? I get their position, what I don't get is where do they get their high horse.

OP has been a vegan for like a month and a half, having been a meat eater for decades...

Not to mention, they will NEVER, EVER achieve their goal if their goal is to convert the entire world as vegans. Or is their goal to have less animal suffer?

The majority of vegans I've met keep to themselves, they are vegan so that their food choices align with their moral values and they continue on with their life.

The fact we are having a conversation about this is good and progressive. Many people will admit they have reduced meat and a lot of that will go back to the vegans being outspoken. We have McPlant in McDonalds which is a thing I never thought would happen!

The good news is that people are softening their views on eating animals and that is a great thing for many reasons. I'm a good example of that, I used to eat an absurd about of meat, but post vegan, I eat only a small fraction now. I totally agree that if we can get the majority to reduce their meat down and being more conscience then that would be better overall than the monitory being vegan.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Most people will stand behind better animal welfare.
A lot of people will support lower their meat consumption.
Very few will go plant food only diet.
Even less to go full vegan.
Zero chance of everyone to be vegan.

Pick your battle, what is your goal? Easy win or impossible task?

 

[Thekwango]

What your essentially saying is "my taste pleasure is more important than the life of that pig or that cow".

my need to eat meat is indeed more important that the life of that pig or cow. if it's tasty then all the better.

 

[LiE]

Most people will stand behind better animal welfare.
A lot of people will support lower their meat consumption.
Very few will go plant food only diet.
Even less to go full vegan.

Pick your battle, what is your goal? Easy win or impossible task?

I'm with you. I'm not aware of a "movement" that promotes this though. We basically have vegans doing this to a degree which as you know is a hard pass by many.

 

[LiE]

my need to eat meat is indeed more important that the life of that pig or cow. if it's tasty then all the better.

For many the necessity to eat meat is real, I am one of those. I do think there are a lot of people who could easily eat less and maybe be selective about what meat they eat. I only eat chicken and fish, because truthfully they are the only animals I'd be OK killing and I deem them lower than a cow, pig or a lamb. That doesn't mean I go nuts and eat lots of chicken and fish mind you, I still eat many meat free meals.

 

[Johno please?]

Haha this thread takes me back. I was eating a strict 'vegan' diet a few years ago, the same old stuff is being discussed here. I manged about four years before my health really suffered, I continued that long as I was way too dogmatic about it.
I started eating animal foods again to reverse my failing health.

We as Homo sapiens have been eating meat for millions of years it is our species specific diet, the science is in on this. The N14/15 isotope testing proves this unequivocally, heck we don't even need carbohydrates thanks to Gluconeogenesis.

Plants contain various toxins lectins, oxalates saponins etc but yet we are told that are healthy, Eat your meat people forget all the noise and get on with your life lol

You can be unhealthy eating plants or unhealthy eating meat. Yes were omnivores and can eat meat, but just because we can doesnt mean we have to.

Lets just say that being on a plant based diet is unhealthier, (I dont believe it is) I would still be vegan, thats how diabolical the meat and dairy industries are.

 

[LiE]

You can be unhealthy eating plants or unhealthy eating meat. Yes were omnivores and can eat meat, but just because we can doesnt mean we have to.

Lets just say that being on a plant based diet is unhealthier, (I dont believe it is) I would still be vegan, thats how diabolical the meat and dairy industries are.

I think it's fair to say that it's easier to be unhealthy being vegan if you apply the same effort that you would to eating an omni diet.

 

[visibleman]

....I used to eat an absurd about of meat, but post vegan, I eat only a small fraction now.

 

[LiE]

Yea not the most well written. I used to eat a lot of meat, but now I'm not vegan (post vegan), I now eat a fraction of the meat I used to eat before being vegan.

 

[200sols]

I remember you giving some very impassioned vegan speeches on here.

 

[LiE]

I remember you giving some very impassioned vegan speeches on here.

I still side with the vegan position, it's hard not to emphasise with the animals. I was struggling to meet my nutritional requirements (as an very active gym rat) which was starting to take a physical and mental toll on me. I didn't then flick a switch and go ham (pun intended) on eating meat, but I have some chicken each week and some fish.

 

[visibleman]

Yea not the most well written. I used to eat a lot of meat, but now I'm not vegan (post vegan), I now eat a fraction of the meat I used to eat before being vegan.

Ah my bad; that initially made it sound like you were one of those types that say they're "vegan" because they had a salad for lunch.

Still, i'm surprised Ismo hasn't popped up in this thread....

 

[MikeTheNative]

For a change I made a a vegan chickpea and lentil curry and it was really good. I did have it with some egg fried rice mind
Would make it again.

 

[Ahleckz]

For a change I made a a vegan chickpea and lentil curry and it was really good. I did have it with some egg fried rice mind
Would make it again.

and that’s how the argument should be framed (though I maintain vegans have the moral authority in this narrow argument). The vegan lobby needs to win by showing them that you don’t need meat in meals. It’s not about replacing meat, it’s about making other things the star, or as I generally do, the whole plate is tasty.
Bar the Tempeh, everything I had this week for dinner was what you could consider accidental vegan and none of it needed meat nor would meat have elevated it imo.

Crunchy Green Salad
Black bean tacos
Beetroot feta pasta (use soured cashew cream instead of feta)
Pasta e Ceci
spicy miso ramen
Caramelised onion galette
Sweet and Spicy Tempeh with Garlic Curry Noodles

 

[Angilion]

You can be unhealthy eating plants or unhealthy eating meat. Yes were omnivores and can eat meat, but just because we can doesnt mean we have to.

Lets just say that being on a plant based diet is unhealthier, (I dont believe it is) I would still be vegan, thats how diabolical the meat and dairy industries are.

A natural diet of only plants would be fatal to humans. We're physiologically adapted to being omnivores, not herbivores or carnivores. Being exclusively carnivorous or being exclusively herbivorous requires either physiological adaptations which humans don't have or a high enough level of technology, infrastructure and resources. Which some humans do have now.

Even with industrial agriculture and practical mass transport of foodstuffs in vast quantities over huge distances in a short enough period of time for artificial preservation to be possible, it's still much harder for a vegan diet to be as healthy as an omnivorous diet for humans because humans are physiologically adapted to an omnivorous diet. Small numbers of vegans with enough money and enough knowledge of nutrition sourcing raw ingredients from wherever those plants are grown and preparing their own food can have a healthy diet (and probably will) as long as they supplement as required. Supplementation will be required for B12 at an absolute minimum and probably several other nutrients too because while anything else can be obtained from plants it's a lot more difficult to get suitable quantities of it all without also getting excessive amounts of anything else. But it's possible. I know a couple of people who've done it. However, food for everyone (as opposed to a small number of people with enough money, knowledge and motivation) is a different matter entirely. That vegan diet will be unhealthier than a comparable omnivorous diet.

 

[MikeTheNative]

and that’s how the argument should be framed (though I maintain vegans have the moral authority in this narrow argument). The vegan lobby needs to win by showing them that you don’t need meat in meals. It’s not about replacing meat, it’s about making other things the star, or as I generally do, the whole plate is tasty.
Bar the Tempeh, everything I had this week for dinner was what you could consider accidental vegan and none of it needed meat nor would meat have elevated it imo.

Crunchy Green Salad
Black bean tacos
Beetroot feta pasta (use soured cashew cream instead of feta)
Pasta e Ceci
spicy miso ramen
Caramelised onion galette
Sweet and Spicy Tempeh with Garlic Curry Noodles

yeah I agree, it takes being a bit more adventurous in the kitchen than your traditional British meat and two veg but you can make genuinely nice meals, that happen to be vegan.
I'm trying to cut down on meat a bit now (cheese might be a bit harder though). aiming to only have one meat dish a day and some days none. Already planning to do a cauliflower and potato curry now next week.

 

[Angilion]

For a change I made a a vegan chickpea and lentil curry and it was really good. I did have it with some egg fried rice mind
Would make it again.

I happened to spot a ready meal that was mushy pea curry. I bought it because I'd never even thought about it let alone eaten it and that's usually enough reason for me to eat something. It was pretty much the same as I'd expect from the same thing using chickpeas and/or lentils. Which isn't surprising. It might have less environmental impact, maybe. The mushy peas might well have been grown closer to here than the lentils and chickpeas would be. Maybe.