Poll: Winter Is Coming - HBO's A Game of Thrones [READ WARNING]

Who will rule Westeros?


  • Total voters
    471
  • Poll closed .
The music in that episode went too Hans Zimmer in Dunkirk for me. Every bloody bit was a tick tocking beat.

Interesting to see Gendry is second in line in the poll. Since season 1 he's been my bet, amazed that he's still there, and now he's bedded Arya....
 
I agree - my point is why have him at all? The series would have been best if it had only been about the fight for the throne.

But now that they have interjected with this massive existential threat, the battle for a throne seems pretty inconsequential.

More drama, a reason to drag it out. No idea. But it added to the plot and it kept everyone guessing. Perhaps they wanted to underscore quite how terrible a person Cersei is by abandoning them, whilst needing a plot device to draw all the other armies/sides together to face her. Could be anything, but that there are a few unexplained things now that the Night King is gone should detract from the rest.

My mate genuinely went into the final episode of Lost believing that it would tie up every single plot detail and twist over the past 6 seasons without realising that they just wanted to round of the show... having a flashback for a character who never said a word and had less than 1% screen time, despite only having three episodes left, would seem like an almighty waste of time.
 
More drama, a reason to drag it out. No idea. But it added to the plot and it kept everyone guessing. Perhaps they wanted to underscore quite how terrible a person Cersei is by abandoning them, whilst needing a plot device to draw all the other armies/sides together to face her. Could be anything, but that there are a few unexplained things now that the Night King is gone should detract from the rest.

My mate genuinely went into the final episode of Lost believing that it would tie up every single plot detail and twist over the past 6 seasons without realising that they just wanted to round of the show... having a flashback for a character who never said a word and had less than 1% screen time, despite only having three episodes left, would seem like an almighty waste of time.

There's a difference between tying up every single plotline which I agree is a waste of time, and tying up one of the two massive plotlines which has spanned 8 full series with a proper explanation.
 
I have been digesting the episode for a while, and I have a bit of time so here's my take on the episode:

It was bloomin' brilliant, but also flawed at the same time.

Despite the awful encoding on Sky making it look like mud, it was visually excellent. The dark aesthetic was used to brilliant affect, and it was overall a visual treat. The sound track was amazing. I had hoped for a different outcome from the battle, but I'm not so sad with the Arya outcome. With the benefit of hindsight you can see all the things leading up to it, and it makes perfect sense with the writing so far. From the fuss made about Catspaw, including Sam reading about it in the citadel, to the hints in the prophecies, the build up of Arya's skills, the same move used to kill him shown off a few episodes earlier, and the in-episode reminder about her stealthy side, it fits together really well. Of the ways that the Night King could be taken down and end everything, it was one of the best. It also makes sense that the story is "really" about the throne of the Seven Kingdoms.

On the other hand, the absolute tactical stupidity of the "Allies" was almost unbearable, from the amazing incompetence of the initial setup to the multiple failures to think ahead, it seemed like it was a plan dreamed up by someone who'd never even seen a battle, yet alone considered the nature of the threat they were facing. I can forgive overlooking the potential threat of the Crypt but to not even post some guards to protect them is ridiculous. Meanwhile they stake everything on beating the Night King with the Bran-baited trap, but didn't even think to put in place a backup for dragonfire not doing the job. Why was no-one placed there with Valerian steel or dragonglass weapons? Why not hide a squadron of archers with dragonglass tipped arrows on the walls? Something other than: oh poop, he isn't dead, we got nothing. Theon's last stand was narratively nicely done, but why-oh-why wouldn't he know how to charge with a spear? I'd like a charge, but running with a spear at someone isn't a charge, it's the rookie mistake of someone who needs to be taught to stick them with the pointy end. Why didn't he hold the spear closer to the butt end and drop into a thrust at the end? It's a spear! The damn point is that the point is that the stabby bit stays a goodly distance from you!

Then there's the ridiculous levels of should-be-dead on show. Yes, I know it's not that bad by the standards of normal TV and film but GoT was at its best precisely because it didn't follow those rules. To some extent, I suppose, it's because the show is now focusing on the characters who've always had the most plot protection. Show!Dany is less ridiculous than book!Dany but she still gets away - repeatedly - with stuff that would have ended other characters or at least spoiled their plans throughout every season. Several times we see characters swamped in one scene and apparently fine the next. Yes, the death toll was heavy, but it was an unsurprising cast of deaths.

I watched Endgame last night, having watched GoT in the morning and - without spoilers - it really sells its big fight scenes so much better. The Night King, a threat built up over seasons, should not have gone down so easily. Yes, the set up was there for Arya getting the kill, but he needed to be seen to win more on the way in. Sure, he took the dragonfire and kept on coming - something which was, by the way, nicely foreshadowed in earlier episodes - but he took a beating on his dragon and never even needed to draw his sword. I'd have liked to see him battle someone with a Valerian Steel sword - Jorah would be the obvious choice - and crush them underfoot, or something, anything, to make the personal victory over him feel more hard one.

Plotwise, I really dislike the overworn cut-off-the-head-and-the-rest-die trope. It's just tired at this stage. I'd have much rather they had a cleverer means of beating him than just "kill the leader". Even the rest of the White Walkers surviving would have made a big difference. Let them escape to fight another day, and things stay interesting. I'm also not mad-keen on resolving it at all at this stage. I'd have liked to see them lose this battle, and take a rag tag force south to make another stand, perhaps even with Cersei losing Kings Landing as a result of her refusal to join the fight. But, that said, I'll be happy enough if it feels like there are consequences for this battle. The entire Dothraki army gone. The Unsullied more or less wiped out. The force of the North decimated. The dragons alive but injured. That should have serious consequences for Dany's ambitions. I'd also take some more interesting stuff happening following on from Bran and the Night King; although I hope they don't succumb to their tendency to overexplain and give motivations or similar to the Night King. None-the-less, Game of Thrones has always been surprisingly grounded for a fantasy show, the main conflicts have always been human and political, so I do think that it needed to come down to a human conflict in the end. My hope that Dany will finally, finally die from one of the so, so, so many immensely dumb things she does is looking less likely all the time so I'm pretty sure that she'll take the throne of Westeros one way or another.

Overall, it feels like Game of Thrones has lost some of what made it such an interesting, unique, show and become a damn well made fantasy show instead. Now, I like a damn well made fantasy show so I'm still loving it, but I still get a little feeling that it could be better. I remain hopeful that we'll see an ending that is worthy of the build-up
 
How can they flesh out the Night King anymore with three episodes left and how can Arya be a Mary Sue when she is a trained assassin.

I was expected at least one more episode with the NK in. We all hope hope for different things ultimately with shows like this.

Maybe so. I just feel she is over powered and too capable. No discernible weaknesses in spite of her age. I never like that sort of thing in fiction. I think the NK was owed a better send off. A more epic defeat involving something more than a shanking.
 
I was expected at least one more episode with the NK in. We all hope hope for different things ultimately with shows like this.

Maybe so. I just feel she is over powered and too capable. No discernible weaknesses in spite of her age. I never like that sort of thing in fiction. I think the NK was owed a better send off. A more epic defeat involving something more than a shanking.

In the books she is built up a lot more and her training is a lot more substantial, watching the show you would think she had been there a week and left. Books I believe it happens over years iirc.

I'm fine with her killling him, my bigger issue was just the general stupidity of all the defenders, if I was going to be a king and of those left living wouldn't be allowed in the army again except as cannon fodder as they were so thick with those tactics.

Not sure if the book (let's be honest, we'll probably never see it anyway) send off for him will be any different but you've got to imagine there would be more involved in what is the primary threat. Built up so much and a quick stab, done. Didn't even give you a hint of his backstory.
 
I have been digesting the episode for a while, and I have a bit of time so here's my take on the episode:


On the other hand, the absolute tactical stupidity of the "Allies" was almost unbearable, from the amazing incompetence of the initial setup to the multiple failures to think ahead, it seemed like it was a plan dreamed up by someone who'd never even seen a battle, yet alone considered the nature of the threat they were facing.

That's the thing, the incompetence was perfectly planned. It was foreshadowed and set out in the last episode.

This shows how ruthless and unsympathetic Bran aka the 3ER is to fellow man. After all, the 3ER is part of the children of the forest collective who started all this off by creating the NK.

All he needed were diversions and time to draw out the NK. It was his plan. He didn't want the armies success.

He wanted it to be easy for the NK. Bran clearly saw what would come to pass and we assume the NK did too bar Arya (as a no one).

He basically offered up his forces, friends, family et al to save himself. It was a simple, futile smokescreen.
 
I too had to close the curtains as I couldnt see it during the day. However just watched first few minutes via the NowTV app on my PC of when the horde attack and upto the bit where the cold front comes in and I could see quite a few things I hadnt seen before due to the poor lighting. So I might rewatch it again using that.

There has been some discussion on other boards whether Arya actually wore the face of the White Walker that you see in the clip which is how she got so close. I did think "YES" in my head when I first saw her attack as out of all the characters I am glad she despatched the Night King.
 
That's the thing, the incompetence was perfectly planned. It was foreshadowed and set out in the last episode.

Interesting take, but I'm not sure I really buy into it. Sure, Bran/3ER would do that, but as far as I can tell he is not directly in charge of the armies. Surely it's Dany/Jon/Jorah/etc directing things?
 
Interesting take, but I'm not sure I really buy into it. Sure, Bran/3ER would do that, but as far as I can tell he is not directly in charge of the armies. Surely it's Dany/Jon/Jorah/etc directing things?

It was Bran's plan though. Even down to giving Arya the dagger. Equally complicit by not disclosing his foresight to the others. The whole premise was drawing the NK out to Bran where they would kill him. They didn't need to win or even try to as the NK may retreat, they had to lose.
 
The Night King was created during the war between the First Men and Children of the Forest. This was way before there was a Night's Watch.

Here's GRRM's comments on him: one two in book and show:

“In the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder,” Martin writes on his Not-A-Blog, “And no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have.”​

Also note:

Starting with the episode “Hardhome”, the TV writers have started openly referring to the White Walker leader as “the Night King”. Back in Season 4 the online guide also briefly listed him as “The Night’s King” but was hastily taken down, apparently a leak. The online guide now calls him “The Night King”.​

They're not different characters in the same setting; they're a character different in book and show.
 
It was Bran's plan though. Even down to giving Arya the dagger. Equally complicit by not disclosing his foresight to the others. The whole premise was drawing the NK out to Bran where they would kill him. They didn't need to win or even try to as the NK may retreat, they had to lose.

Yeah, the overall plan: I agree. But I didn't see anything that suggested that the battlefield leaders agreed to pointless squander their troops in order to set it up. I also don't see how they had to lose, rather they needed to set up a situation in which the Night King could reach Bran whilst the rest of the battle raged.
 
Maybe so. I just feel she is over powered and too capable. No discernible weaknesses in spite of her age. I never like that sort of thing in fiction. I think the NK was owed a better send off. A more epic defeat involving something more than a shanking.

She'd have been dead if it wasn't for Beric and the Hound.

Characters rarely get offed in epic fashion in GoT - as in real life, death tends to blindside characters out of when they don't expect it, usually due to ignorance of their own failings.
 
Here's GRRM's comments on him: one two in book and show:

“In the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder,” Martin writes on his Not-A-Blog, “And no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have.”​

So they're clearly different characters.

They're not different characters in the same setting; they're a character different in book and show.

Are you a film studies graduate?
 
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