Woman sentenced to prison for abortion.

I think @robgmun was expressing a preference for 90% of those to have not gotten themselves pregnant in the first place rather than those pregnancies being carried to term and put up for adoption etc.

As in it's surely better to have had say 25,000 abortions instead because more people were better able to access and use contraception properly. Abortions should be legal but rare etc.

I'm not sure if those figures include things like the morning after pill though.

Yes I agree - better education, access to contraception etc are all the preferred option. Ideally we wouldn't need any of them, and I hope that the male pill reduces the rate even further when both parties have the option for it along with protection etc.

I don't really get that stance either.

I also think perhaps 24 weeks is pushing it a bit even. We do have exceptions re: medical stuff, there was a case not too long ago trying to stop the exemption from the limit for disabilities etc.. like a baby with downs can be terminated after 24 weeks.

There are some horrific and rare medical issues where I do think that can be appropriate, can't remember the condition but there was one where the baby is born in immense pain, skin all burned etc.. and pretty much guaranteed to not survive long at all. I do wonder if infanticide is perhaps justified in such a case, if we're prepared to abort in a case like that when it's in the womb then why not a few days later when it's outside, I guess doctors can/do practice a form of that anyway when they remove oxygen/turn off life support etc..

This thread shows the fact that there is no simple answer to it all, and I fully expect in the future the 24 week limit may change a bit as medical technology and the ability for a baby to survive outside the womb moves further left. There will always be exceptions though, and that's for the medical community to deal with because they're the experts.

It's not a nice subject to be dealing with, legally or medically - all we're doing as a society is trying to make the best decisions for everyone.
 
Yes I agree - better education, access to contraception etc are all the preferred option. Ideally we wouldn't need any of them, and I hope that the male pill reduces the rate even further when both parties have the option for it along with protection etc.

The "Male Pill" will never happen. They've been talking about it for decades and it never leaves the trial stage.

I'm generally pro-life but I understand what's it like to live in the real world and things don't always go to plan. In an ideal world, Abortions would only be used if the baby was a result of rape, incest or the baby is disabled. But that only accounts for a few percent of abortions today, and when the number is so extremely high you know something has gone badly wrong, and it's worth looking into how we can reduce the number as much as we can without violating women's rights
 
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Also, today I become aware of Pro-Choice extremism. I was fully aware of extreme Pro-Life views, but never seen a view of “it’s only a baby if given birth to” stance. I feel yucky.

Interestingly, judging by the last thread with a poll that was linked to earlier, 16.5% of the forum support this view of permitting abortions right up until birth. I've no doubt a handful of those were people accounting for 'outlier' scenarios of extreme medical risks to the mother etc. but it would appear to be a significantly more common viewpoint (at least on these forums) than either of the pro-life stances on the poll.
 
The sooner a male pill becomes available the better, as it'll give us one more tool in the prevention of unwanted pregnancies.

I'd take that in a heartbeat. Currently going back and forth with the idea of having the snip as we are trying to decide if we want another. Once that choice has been made will depend how I treat getting the surgery. I just hate that it feels so 'final' so I really need to know it's what I want.

My partner doesn't want to be on the pill/implant because when she gets pumped up with hormones it puts her in a pretty bad space and we've both heard horror stories of the coil. I'd gladly take one for the team if a male pill was invented. Can't stand party hats but obviously the fact we now have a (frankly amazing) daughter shows my method clearly needs a bit more work :o
 
I'd take that in a heartbeat. Currently going back and forth with the idea of having the snip as we are trying to decide if we want another. Once that choice has been made will depend how I treat getting the surgery. I just hate that it feels so 'final' so I really need to know it's what I want.

My partner doesn't want to be on the pill/implant because when she gets pumped up with hormones it puts her in a pretty bad space and we've both heard horror stories of the coil. I'd gladly take one for the team if a male pill was invented. Can't stand party hats but obviously the fact we now have a (frankly amazing) daughter shows my method clearly needs a bit more work :o

We just use condoms, worked for us fine for 13 years without issue. Every time a male pill is trialed a certain percentage always become permanently infertile which is a big no-no to pass the trials
 
We just use condoms, worked for us fine for 13 years without issue. Every time a male pill is trialed a certain percentage always become permanently infertile which is a big no-no to pass the trials
Yeah, I'm just not a fan of them. Obviously when I was younger and sowing my oats I'd use them but I've never enjoyed them

Maybe I'm just cheap
 
I've known them to fail. Twice in my case. Abortions are surprisingly expensive.
i thought morning after pill was free on NHS, and afaik abortions are too so long as you do not leave it super late (not an expert in this but iirc if you leave it too late nhs may tell you to do one and hten you have to pay privately)
 
Yeah, I'm just not a fan of them. Obviously when I was younger and sowing my oats I'd use them but I've never enjoyed them

Maybe I'm just cheap
I agree, sex with condoms is just miserable, I just chance the old pull out method.

Although were trying for another baby so not too bad at the moment. ;)
 
I agree, sex with condoms is just miserable, I just chance the old pull out method.

Although were trying for another baby so not too bad at the moment. ;)

Yeah I thought my pull out game was super strong but it turns out I have a 14 month old comeuppance telling me it's not as good as I thought

I do like the idea of the snip though I just want to be sure we are both content with 1. Going to revisit the topic in the Winter and if we've decided we'll stick with 1 then it's going to be the snip train with the raw bust final destination
 
i thought morning after pill was free on NHS, and afaik abortions are too so long as you do not leave it super late (not an expert in this but iirc if you leave it too late nhs may tell you to do one and hten you have to pay privately)
It is now, but it wasn't always and it didn't prevent an ectopic.
The abortion op was down to the other party not discovering for a few weeks and, due to her residency status, not qualifying for NHS either.
 
Pullout worked for me for about 10 years, then when we decided we wanted kids I got her knocked up straight away. I'm the ejaculant ninja, no trace left behind.
 
Going by that logic, they probably still aren't "self-aware" for the first few weeks after being born either ;)

First few years you mean.

Theres no point having laws if you ignore them and when is it OK to abort? Few days before the birth OK?

I probably used the wrong phrase by using "self-awareness". I was trying to refer to something along the lines of when someone manifests, I think it's reasonable for people to have differing views on when this manifest (or when "life") begins. My own personal view is at around childbirth / delivery i.e. when the child sees the outside world. In some religions though e.g. Buddhism, life is perceived right at the beginning, at conception.

More like decades... have you met most teenagers? :p

LOL. I think I agree with you the most!

Also, today I become aware of Pro-Choice extremism. I was fully aware of extreme Pro-Life views, but never seen a view of “it’s only a baby if given birth to” stance. I feel yucky.

Interesting. Like you, I knew about pro-choice and the tactics that some of them use, like harassing patients outside abortion clinics. I didn't know the equal and opposite though, pro-choice extremism.

I assume you don't have any children?

I can't have kids due to inherited genetics (which are dominant).
 
A very pertinent case as to why abortion should not (just/aways) be about 'a woman's right to choose'

Pregnancy is definitely a very unique scenario. In fact I cannot think of a scenario where the rights of two humans can be so diametrically and seriously opposed.

In arguments about late/ full term abortions the extreme pro abortionists will often claim that late abortions either don't happen or only happen in extreme circumstances for medical reasons. Of course when the reply comes that "you won't mind if we criminalise late term elective abortions then" they start frothing at the mouth with the usual incandescent rage you can expect of an extremist called out on their nonsense.


This case shows that however rare these situations do arise and so the question is how should they be dealt with?

The facts are pretty clear:

Human life begins at conception but the ability to feel and suffer and development in general as an individual is an emergent property that develops both during pregnancy and for many years after birth.

Nothing magical happens during birth that significantly alters the ability of the baby being born to suffer

Therefore I suggest it is logical that full term babies should be afforded protection approaching that which we grant human life after birth including legal protection against being killed.

This of course may infringes strongly on the bodily autonomy of females but as with all conflicting rights a balance has to be struck.

There is of course a sex based difference here as men don't face the same scenario as females do. But the flip side of this is that a man can be deliberately deceived by a woman about issues like contraception of sterilisation and have no say as to whether a pregnancy is brought to term yet remain financially liable for any children born. This is not to say the two scenarios are of equally severity or duration just that the effects a of an unwanted pregnancy are different for males and females.

The UK largely maintains a sensible policy of allowing earlier term, elective abortions whilst recognising that later term abortions must only be for sound medical reasons.

The Judges comments don't make for very good reading for the woman convicted.





This case concerns one woman’s tragic and unlawful decision to obtain a very late abortion. The balance struck by the law between a woman’s reproductive rights and the rights of her unborn foetus is an emotive and often controversial issue. That is, however, a matter for Parliament and not for the courts.

The 1967 Act requires that such treatment be provided at a clinic or other premises approved by the Secretary of State. Between 2018 and the COVID-19 pandemic, women seeking an early medical abortion were required to attend a clinic for the first part of their treatment but were able to take the second drug, misoprostol, at home. That model of providing abortion services was not sustainable at the height of the pandemic and accordingly, on 30 March 2020, the then Secretary of State for Health & Social Care approved a woman’s home as a suitable place for abortion treatment. The effect of that approval was that abortion services could be provided without the need for an in-person appointment at a clinic. In 2020, the courts dismissed a judicial review claim brought by Christian Concern seeking to challenge the lawfulness of the provision of abortion services by so-called telemedicine.

Some weeks after that change in the law, you, Carla Foster, obtained abortion drugs by a telephone consultation designed only for abortions in the first ten weeks. You were in fact 32-34 weeks pregnant and well beyond the point at which you could lawfully obtain an abortion. Messages found on your phone indicate that you had known of your pregnancy for about three months on 1 February 2020. By mid February, you were conducting internet searches on ways to induce a miscarriage. By the end of February, you were searching for abortion services. Your search on 25 February indicated that you then believed that you were 23 weeks pregnant. Your internet searches continued sporadically through March and April 2020. On 24 April, you searched “I need to have an abortion but I’m past 24 weeks.

On 6 May, you consulted the telemedical service provided by the British Pregnancy Advisory Service. You gave false answers that would have indicated that your Page 2 of 6 pregnancy was 7 weeks and 4 days in length. Abortifacient drugs were then posted out to you

On 9 May, you took mifepristone. That same day you conducted internet searches suggesting that you were 28 weeks pregnant. You then took the misoprostol at around 1pm on 11 May. Two emergency calls were made for medical attention that afternoon and evening. Paramedics attended at 4.25pm in response to a report that you might be having a miscarriage. You gave the paramedics false information and, not realising that you were pregnant, they left. The second call was made at 6.39pm shortly before your daughter, Lily, was stillborn. Paramedics attended at 7pm but all attempts at resuscitation failed and Lily was pronounced dead at 7.45pm. Further internet searches that evening suggested that you believed that you were 30 weeks pregnant.
You originally maintained to medical staff that you were unaware that you were pregnant. You later told a midwife that you had obtained drugs from an abortion clinic and that you believed that you were in the early stages of pregnancy. You said that you realised that you needed to speak to the police. When you did so, you admitted taking abortifacient drugs and that Lily could have been conceived in either October or December 2019, but you maintained that you did not know how far into the pregnancy you had been.

I can't help but think that prison is justified in this case and that the charities and activists calling it a travesty are not helping their cause of at least maintaining what will always be the compromise that the current legal situation deals with.
 
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