Woolwich serious incident

I can't for the life of me think why any rational human being would defend Islam.

The people who commit these atrocities are acting in accordance to what the Quran teaches. Here's the thing, IF these extremists are taking what the Quran says out of context, then why don't Muslims around the world stand up and say they are taking it out of accordance. You don't hear that do you. And whys that? Because they know damn well that when these people do these odious crimes they are simply going by what the Quran teaches. And that's the truth. And if we speak up about this we're just referred to as haters of Islam. Damn right. I am an hater of Islam. I detest it. It is responsible for the suffering of millions and if speaking up about the evil things Islam does make me enemy, the
n an enemy to Muslims I shall be.

You DO hear Muslims speaking out about it, you just don't tend to hear them as much in the papers because, frankly "Muslim speaks out against fanatics" doesn't have the same power to sell papers as "Hate preacher lives on British Benefits, is given (insert random, but high number) pounds per year".

Part of the problem with Islam is basically that you don't have any non state organised hierarchy*, so unlike say the Catholic Church which can trot out an official statement saying how sorry they are that part of their church (often quite a large part) has been involved in child abuse/covering it up, you don't get a statement from a Muslim equivalent about fanatics, because there isn't a Muslim equivalent.
What you do get is the Muslim Council of Britain etc (which is about the closest thing to an official Islamic hierarchy in the UK), issuing a statement about it, but that either doesn't get reported, or gets ignored by idiots who would prefer to not have their prejudices challenged by hearing anything that goes against them.



*And in a lot of the extremist Islamic countries, or even those that are slightly westernised (but not too much under the hood), the state organised Islamic religion uses it as a political tool to keep the elite in power - pretty much the same way the Catholic Church was used in Europe until a couple of hundred years ago (when the Pope would actively get involved in giving the Church's blessing to whatever King or would be King was most likely to contribute the most to the coffers of church).
 
Philip Hammond isn't in the EDL as far as I'm aware :).

He also isn't the English Defence Minister, he's the UK Defence Minister.

I believe they didn't want to hand them over due to fear of abuse.

Because they're fighting in a war in Afghanistan which is a primitive country where this sort of thing goes on. Honestly, listening to some people you get the impression that Taliban prisoners should be offered asylum and shipped off to the UK at the first opportunity to protect their "yuman rites".
 
You DO hear Muslims speaking out about it, you just don't tend to hear them as much in the papers because, frankly "Muslim speaks out against fanatics" doesn't have the same power to sell papers as "Hate preacher lives on British Benefits, is given (insert random, but high number) pounds per year".

Part of the problem with Islam is basically that you don't have any non state organised hierarchy*, so unlike say the Catholic Church which can trot out an official statement saying how sorry they are that part of their church (often quite a large part) has been involved in child abuse/covering it up, you don't get a statement from a Muslim equivalent about fanatics, because there isn't a Muslim equivalent.
What you do get is the Muslim Council of Britain etc (which is about the closest thing to an official Islamic hierarchy in the UK), issuing a statement about it, but that either doesn't get reported, or gets ignored by idiots who would prefer to not have their prejudices challenged by hearing anything that goes against them.



*And in a lot of the extremist Islamic countries, or even those that are slightly westernised (but not too much under the hood), the state organised Islamic religion uses it as a political tool to keep the elite in power - pretty much the same way the Catholic Church was used in Europe until a couple of hundred years ago (when the Pope would actively get involved in giving the Church's blessing to whatever King or would be King was most likely to contribute the most to the coffers of church).

Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that the people who commit these atrocities are not acting in accordance to what the quran teaches? We all know they are. Lets not kid ourselves here.
 
I can't for the life of me think why any rational human being would defend Islam.

Maybe because the sensible and rational people among us understand that the vast majority of Muslims in the U.K are hard working peaceful human-beings who are vehemently opposed to violent radicalized Islamic fundamentalists!

Live and let live, if people want to waste their time peacefully worshiping some silly super-natural being then so be it!! Provided they don't start attacking free society with their religious beliefs I couldn't give a flying fudge what they do
 
Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that the people who commit these atrocities are not acting in accordance to what the quran teaches? We all know they are. Lets not kid ourselves here.
The Quran has lovey dovey bits, and it also has violent parts. And, as with other holy books, it's so open to interpretation that someone of any mindset could do whatever they want and still convince themselves (and sometimes others too) that the almighty creator of the universe has their back.
 
Maybe because the sensible and rational people among us understand that the vast majority of Muslims in the U.K are hard working peaceful human-beings who are vehemently opposed to violent radicalized Islamic fundamentalists!

Live and let live, if people want to waste their time peacefully worshiping some silly super-natural being then so be it!! Provided they don't start attacking free society with their religious beliefs I couldn't give a flying fudge what they do

Was that sarcasm?
 
Was that sarcasm?

Of course not but I don't expect right-wing racist bigots who lack the ability to think for themselves to understand what is actually the reality of the situation!

Ironically these people have been brain-washed by right-wing media and racist hate preachers in a not too dissimilar way that the radicalized religious nutters have!

After 9/11 many utter muppets in America were driving around with bumper stickers and T-Shirts that stated:
''I learnt everything I need to know about Islam on 9/11'' :rolleyes:

It appears we have a few people here who are similarly brain-dead and bigoted like them.
 
Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that the people who commit these atrocities are not acting in accordance to what the quran teaches? We all know they are. Lets not kid ourselves here.

they're acting in the same way that some Christians do with regards to the Bible.

Yes the Koran calls for various things, but so does the bible - often in the same sort of language.

The main difference is, that the Christian churches have central leaderships who basically choose the "leaders" for most areas, and the doctrine they follow, and have largely chosen to ignore or discount the bits in the bible that say it's ok to beat your wife, or to keep slaves etc, and that an eye for an eye should not be taken literally every time*.

Islam doesn't have that central leadership (apart from in a few countries where it's politically expedient to have one as part of the political regime**), and thus the "leaders" are more likely to read doctrine in whatever way they want, and are (as I understand it), often largely self elected, with the sort of sitatuion you often see when you get self elected leaders, IE the noisy ones with the easy answers getting the attention of the people who are disatisfied for whatever reason***.

Yes there is a problem with some Muslims in this country being extremist, however I strongly suspect that with most of them if there wasn't Islam to turn to, they'd probably be doing something in the name of some other cause such as gangs.

[edit]
Damn I didn't get to use the hammer.

*Except where it suits those in favour of the death penalty etc to quote the bible where it talks about the punishment (and ignoring the bits about forgiveness etc).

**As it gives them some reason (other than their own governments being rubbish etc), to blame someone for their living conditions, and it's always easy to blame the "outsider", be it someone in another country, or someone who has different beliefs than your own, even if they follow the same main "holy" book (IE look at the fun and games you have in Scotland and NI with the sectarian violence, and how much it's tied into the local political power situation).

***You just have to look at the likes of the BNP and EDL for examples of that in non mulsim "politics", where the easy slogan and blame on the outsider is taken up, largely by people who feel hard done by or are poorly educated.
 
EDL blamed by the family of the murdered old muslim in birmingham, with evidence of death threats from them:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-22665571

Nice to see the EDL are the winners in all this community tensions.....

Why would the EDL target a 75 year old man? There are an estimated 10m Muslims in the UK, why him? Methinks there's a bit more to this story than blame whitey.
 
blaming whitey is a bit different to blaming the EDL :rolleyes:. If you bothered to look at the article properly you'd see that the victim's family had been subject to death threats directly from the EDL in birmingham. - evidence enclosed.


An interesting article here too: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/29/britain-wars-terror-islamophobia
Eight years on, nothing has been learned. In the week since a British soldier was horrifically stabbed to death by London jihadists on the streets of Woolwich, it's July 2005 all over again. David Cameron immediately rushed to set up a task force and vowed to ban "hate clerics". Now the home secretary wants to outlaw "nonviolent extremist" organisations, censor broadcasters and websites and revive plans to put the whole country's phone and web records under surveillance.
"Kneejerk" barely does it justice. As for the impact on Muslims, the backlash has if anything been worse than in 2005, when 52 Londoners were killed by suicide bombers. As the police and a BBC reporter described the alleged killers as of "Muslim appearance" (in other words, non-white), Islamophobic attacks spiked across the country. In the first five days 10 mosques were attacked, culminating in a triple petrol bombing in Grimsby.
As politicians and the media congratulated themselves that Britain was "calmly carrying on as usual", it won't have felt like that to the Muslim woman who had her veil ripped off and was knocked unconscious in Bolton. Nor, presumably, to the family of 75-year-old Mohammed Saleem, stabbed to death in Birmingham in what had all the hallmarks of an Islamophobic attack last month – or, for that matter, the nearly two-thirds of the population who think there will be a "clash of civilisations" between white Britons and Muslims, up 9% since the Woolwich atrocity.
One key change since 2005 is the rise of the violently anti-Muslim English Defence League, given a new lease of life by Woolwich. More than 40% of Islamophobic incidents recorded by the Muslim organisation Faith Matters last year were linked to the EDL or other far-right groups. "It makes me feel I don't belong here", one Muslim community leader quotes his teenage son as telling him this week.
 
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How is this still ongoing. If you took the time and energy put into this thread and did something productive, think of the possibilities!

Yea my post count is mighty too, but c'mon!
 
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