Work and career progression apathy.. Is it much more prevalent now?

[mattyfez]

It's a difficult decision.. I'm basically semi retired after far too much BS in the cooperate IT industry... I love the work but I hate the management aspect, fighting different factions in the same company to get the nessesary budget and manpower to do a particular job properly...

I'm just so done with that.

I work to live though, rather than live to work... I just want to retire comfortably and provide for my family... I don't care about fast cars and 5 star holidays.

 

[OspreyO]

These no one size fits all when it comes to this. If you are in a high well paying position and high pressure I could see why you would step back. I know a few that have done that. But I'm seeing people at my level (mid level IT). Just calling it quits on advancing. They are just worn out of all the management and HR games.

But I'd still like to take on more at work. The issue I have is promotional opportunities are non existent as all going to new hires with paper qualifications who then can't do the work and those of us with the technical skills have then to cover for them. It's getting very old watching them ignoring all advice and then reinventing the wheel as a square wheel then asking us to help push this cart with it square wheels.

Or they hire developers as managers who then can't manage and won't code either. Certainly won't do any support.

 

[Chrisc]

Not really... Being a manager doesn't necessitate you being able to do the job. You are there to manage, not necessarily do and it can often be a different skill set.

I'd imagine a manager at an engineering place will hand out jobs that he has no idea how to do - welding, plating, electrical etc... is it embarrassing that they delegate the work of welding when their background is in electrics and they've never welded before?

Yes really, how are you supposed to manage something you have no understanding of? it makes zero sense to me. And it just shows people are willing to progress on the abilities of other people.

I used to deal with a project manager who earned a **** ton more than what I did, they didnt have a clue of the time frames of how long certain jobs took and would pester you constantly because they're clueless...

Embarrassing!!

 

[OspreyO]

To apply for promotion or new job in our place requires to fill out a 4-5 page form that takes about a week. You can never reuse an old one because they change the layout all the time. So you could spend a week or more doing the form, and another week preparing. I think it's just putting people off.

 

[Chrisc]

Depends really. A good manager will know enough about something to be able to manage it.
I've seen bad examples over the years. As a freelancer I once worked on a project with someone managing it who had no idea. Their background was in something else. THey were always asking the wrong questions. What made it worse was that they just weren't very approachable either. Which reminds me that career progression into management to earn more money isn't always a good thing for the company.

Exactly,the example provided of welding/plating etc. . makes zero sense. So the manager asks the welder to go do a particular project and then what? They cant exactly inspect it or offer any help or guidance if it isnt quite going right. At that point the manager is as much use as a one legged man in an arse kicking contest.

 

[adam cool dude]

Exactly,the example provided of welding/plating etc. . makes zero sense. So the manager asks the welder to go do a particular project and then what? They cant exactly inspect it or offer any help or guidance if it isnt quite going right. At that point the manager is as much use as a one legged man in an arse kicking contest.

A manager in that purpose is simply there to sign off holidays, and do menial jobs and admin realistically. As you said a waste of time.

 

[LuckyBenski]

Yes really, how are you supposed to manage something you have no understanding of? it makes zero sense to me. And it just shows people are willing to progress on the abilities of other people.

I used to deal with a project manager who earned a **** ton more than what I did, they didnt have a clue of the time frames of how long certain jobs took and would pester you constantly because they're clueless...

Embarrassing!!

A manager and a project manager are different things. Usually PMs have no respect from me as a general sweeping statement. Often no idea how the subject matter works and don't do any actual work themselves.

But in the real world it's not feasible to have every manager come up directly through the workload they're managing. I am a test lab manager but it's a software test lab. I did the same role as my juniors albeit 5 years ago and was a developer in the middle. I understand the principles of their workload but not the specifics as our tools, the subject matter and our client balance have all changed in 5 years. It's my job to ensure they have what they need to do their work, and that the work gets delivered for our clients (internal and external). My role isn't "Test Engineer one level up", it's "Responsible for the productivity of several test engineers and the lab's output".

I could quite easily move to a different software test lab with an entirely different model (let's say automated software testing and verification Vs the manual TV integration testing we do). I could also move to a test lab for, say, electronics (my background) or radio technology, and still understand the field enough to do the job of managing the test lab.

If you can't trust your staff to do THEIR job properly, and enable them to do that, it's a concern. Managers are there to do exactly that, manage.

FWIW I was uncertain about moving into management and after a year, my doubts have been proven right. I don't enjoy the extra stress, I don't feel empowered to make enough change in my lab or to steer future growth. Line management isn't as rewarding as I hoped, largely because of having a small staff in a remote location. The energy and culture of our main office just isn't here. As such I'm very keen for my next change to be for less stress and less hours. I don't know if it's age, or stage of life after buying a house and getting married, but I've massively deprioritised work since taking this job on. Ideally I'd keep this income and go 4 days a week, and perhaps 3 days a week in some years. In reality I probably have to decide between more money (and hopefully working on the stress levels gradually), or stepping down to less money to go "back" to normal work. Not fussed in the short term as I just bring less and less of myself to work while I focus on home life.

 

[stuman]

The managers in my company are the most replaceable people we have in my opinion. In fact a lot have been recently. There is such an imbalance of renumeration towards managers and project managers over other staff across IT roles. Where I work, there are middle managers on 6 figures that are crusing along not really having any impact. Then there are technical architects, Devs, dbas, SMEs, which make the wheels keep turning seemingly unrecognized, never in any of the monthly recognition award things. Yet some managers are sometimes on multiples of their salaries. Some PMs we've employed on 1k day rates, who couldn't organise a **** up in a brewery.

It's just the way corporate hierarchy is I guess.

Managing is a very different job to an operational role and the normally the most operationally talented are not as talented in the managerial skill set. This is why there is an uptick in salary, not only does the business require you to be great at your operational role, but also poses the abilities to lead and manage.

 

[Psycho Ned]

Interesting thread and I'm kinda in this stage of my career now, I've reached the wall of earning at my current employer without moving into management. I've got little interest in managing and much rather be the one 'doing' the stuff myself than spending all the time in meetings and dealing with other peoples ********.

But I currently earn enough to be happy and go on the holidays I want and buy the things I want and also can happily leave my job at the door when I leave on a day with little stress. So one half of my brain is thinking I 'should' be looking for more money and continuing my progression but the other half is thinking 'why when you're content where you are and with what you have?'

The thing my current boss said always stuck with me 'no one lies on their deathbed wishing they'd worked more' and I am very much work to live not live to work.

 

[Chrisc]

A manager and a project manager are different things. Usually PMs have no respect from me as a general sweeping statement. Often no idea how the subject matter works and don't do any actual work themselves.

But in the real world it's not feasible to have every manager come up directly through the workload they're managing. I am a test lab manager but it's a software test lab. I did the same role as my juniors albeit 5 years ago and was a developer in the middle. I understand the principles of their workload but not the specifics as our tools, the subject matter and our client balance have all changed in 5 years. It's my job to ensure they have what they need to do their work, and that the work gets delivered for our clients (internal and external). My role isn't "Test Engineer one level up", it's "Responsible for the productivity of several test engineers and the lab's output".

I could quite easily move to a different software test lab with an entirely different model (let's say automated software testing and verification Vs the manual TV integration testing we do). I could also move to a test lab for, say, electronics (my background) or radio technology, and still understand the field enough to do the job of managing the test lab.

If you can't trust your staff to do THEIR job properly, and enable them to do that, it's a concern. Managers are there to do exactly that, manage.

FWIW I was uncertain about moving into management and after a year, my doubts have been proven right. I don't enjoy the extra stress, I don't feel empowered to make enough change in my lab or to steer future growth. Line management isn't as rewarding as I hoped, largely because of having a small staff in a remote location. The energy and culture of our main office just isn't here. As such I'm very keen for my next change to be for less stress and less hours. I don't know if it's age, or stage of life after buying a house and getting married, but I've massively deprioritised work since taking this job on. Ideally I'd keep this income and go 4 days a week, and perhaps 3 days a week in some years. In reality I probably have to decide between more money (and hopefully working on the stress levels gradually), or stepping down to less money to go "back" to normal work. Not fussed in the short term as I just bring less and less of myself to work while I focus on home life.

Oh i agree for sure, im not necessarily saying you have to be just as capable as the people you manage, but I do think you should have a great understanding and some level of ability to do the job as well. But then again, maybe im just tunnel visioned based on the industry im in where I have seen really incapable people manage extremely capable people.

As for management itself, I completely agree, the additional stress and workload just wasn't for me after 4yrs of doing it. The hardest part was actually the man management of not only their works lives, but also their personal lives. Knowing what some people were going through personally or medically really took its toll on me.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

The thing my current boss said always stuck with me 'no one lies on their deathbed wishing they'd worked more' and I am very much work to live not live to work.

And no-one ever said “I wish I’d have spent less time with my kids.”

 

[Richie]

Yes really, how are you supposed to manage something you have no understanding of? it makes zero sense to me. And it just shows people are willing to progress on the abilities of other people.

I used to deal with a project manager who earned a **** ton more than what I did, they didnt have a clue of the time frames of how long certain jobs took and would pester you constantly because they're clueless...

Embarrassing!!

Well now you have changed the goal posts... First you said

Absolutely embarrassing seeing people delegate work that they cannot do.

Now you've changed it to

Yes really, how are you supposed to manage something you have no understanding of?

So is it embarrassing if they cant do the actual work themselves or just if they have no understanding of the work as those are very different things.

 

[Orangeade]

There would be some creep im sure most danger there is a car.

Put it this way.

If I had 2 jobs.
A) 150k but it's the normal. 9-5, 5 days a week, 25 days holiday.
B) 60k but you get 50 days off?

I'd take the 60k job.

I had this decision a while back and went for number 1. Ironically I'm now on multiples of that figure and have 35+ days a year odd. But recently I've become very disillusioned, just bored of it. But golden handcuffs on fully now.

I got very lucky with an acquisition recently and have my eyes on something else. If goes to plan I think I might have an exit.

I'm just tired of an excessive lifestyle with complete ********. But im under no illusion ******** jobs have even more pressure for even less.

Edit: lifestyle creep is a very real reality. I insulated myself to a greater degree with my personality and by doing minimum. Eg I bought nice "showy" car which was a sensible purchase because of the label and a Tesla S because again people cannot tell if it was for savings or idealogy haha. Watching some of the insane purchases of people and sheer waste of money is incredible. Especially for idiots for who it's easy come easy go and yet did not build up portfolios first etc. If I lose my job tomorrow at least I have houses and investments. I know people that can spend v healthy 6figure salaries with **** all to show for it at the end.

I am VP level in Banking, looking to move to Director.

I grafted for 15 years to get to VP. Hope to make Director within 10 in that grade.

What I see now is an industry where senior grade roles are slipping away owing to transformation, so this has created less opportunity for those wanting to progress. So you would think that those in lower grade jobs would be wanting to graft to show what they can do and put themslves in the best possible position to progress, right....

.... Well no, what I actually see is a lot of people wanting the grade, wanting the salary, but wanting to do less to get there. It's quite astounding.

I am an advocate of work-life balance, working to live and not living to work etc, but at the same time you have to get real and realise the opportunities don't come to those who just want to "do the minimum" and just scrape by. I put more hours in than I am contracted for, but I am never asked to - There are days I just want to crack on and get extra done. I am under no illusion that in a big corporate there will be no loyalty when my role is eventually automated, but it isn't loyalty to the company that drives me, its just my own drive to want to do a good job and make hay while the sun shines....


MD and above... Not really sure yet, ask me in another 10 years.

Out of curiosity if you had your time again would it take you 15 years again to make VP, and if not why another 10 to make Director? (Assuming I didn't read you wrong). What area you in that progression takes that long?

And yes transformation is a huge problem, streamlining and a race to a bottom has the ladder continually being cut. The next 5-10 years are going to be significantly more difficult than ever before. A lot of people are going to feel a lot of pain and getting to higher grounds before the flood comes makes sense.

 

[Chrisc]

Well now you have changed the goal posts... First you said



Now you've changed it to



So is it embarrassing if they cant do the actual work themselves or just if they have no understanding of the work as those are very different things.

Both follow the same principles. You know what I am getting at.

 

[OspreyO]

Well now you have changed the goal posts... First you said



Now you've changed it to



So is it embarrassing if they cant do the actual work themselves or just if they have no understanding of the work as those are very different things.

Probably both.

If you can't do the work, and don't know the business area, or technical area, you should at least be able to listen and take on board information form those that do.
Of PMs and Managers I've worked about 90% if them just dictate and don't listen.

In the last 12 months they all been moaning about support workflows, resources yet all they've done is created levels bureaucracy duplicating, even triplicating the work, and thus making everything longer to do. I've had enough of it. They manage to reintroduce issues, we had eliminated years ago. Its got the point where I think I'll transfer sideways to another unit with far easy workload and less managers.

 

[GreatAuk]

I know a couple of people who I'd say are 'ambitious' but most are simply aiming for a 'comfortable' moderately senior technical job and maybe middle management at some point. Realistically this is what I'm probably aiming for too.

Off the top of my head I think the biggest reasons people aren't more ambitious are that:
- Advancing higher up the chain above £50kish to say £75k salary just doesn't seem achievable for most people. In my previous job as an engineering consultant and current job in the public sector there might as well be a wall at the £50-£75k mark in most workplaces. To get past that you have to leave any technical work behind and climb the greasy pole to become a very senior manager. Or if you're literally an international expert on a specific technical matter then you might be able to get there in a technical role.
- It's often unclear what path to take if you want one of those very senior jobs. Seems to involve bouncing round positions doing things you aren't really qualified to do just long enough to boost you onto the next rung, and not everyone is cut out for that or can understand the path forwards. Hard to aspire to one of those roles if you're not sure where to start, and as there aren't many opportunities to get jobs at that level probably feels like you're on a hiding to nothing if you're not sure where to go next.
- The incremental salary upgrades you get on the way to senior management actually look pretty small compared to the increase in responsibilities. Makes the more senior roles less of a draw, even though the benefit is still there for the people able to talk the talk. Eg in my current public sector organisation £40k has you leading a team of 5-10ish, £75k has you in charge of 100 to 150 people, with bands at around £50k and £63k somewhere inbetween depending on which part of the business they're in and what they're doing. £100k has you leading around 500 people. If you stay in a technical role then the progression tops out at £63k-ish apart from a few exceptions. I think pay was slightly higher across the board for comparable roles at my previous engineering consultancy employer, but not *that* much higher.
- higher salaries don't get you as much as maybe they used to... after tax a higher salary maybe means you can have a slightly nicer car and a slightly bigger house, but if you want an American sized house or nice country house then you basically still need to have a massive inheritance or save for decades.

 

[Ayahuasca]

And no-one ever said “I wish I’d have spent less time with my kids.”

Sadly, they do exist. Some people aren’t cut out to be parents and can’t handle being around their children for long at all. They value being able to provide finances over everything else.

 

[Efour]

Sadly, they do exist. Some people aren’t cut out to be parents and can’t handle being around their children for long at all. They value being able to provide finances over everything else.

Think my dad was like that tbh.
Stemmed from his dad being *****, well it was a different era, not bad parenting, just different..... He spent everything on us kids tbh..... Put both is through uni at the same time, must have been a hell of an extra financial burden.
Cheers dad... never really said thanks.

 

[EvilRob]

It's perhaps not worth progressing to get to the next rung in isolation, but several rungs later it's worth it. There's only so much stress you can feel and you learn to cope/switch off gradually.
I think there is a certain point in companies where you 'made it' and you start getting very well taken care of.

 

[jaybee]

I had this decision a while back and went for number 1. Ironically I'm now on multiples of that figure and have 35+ days a year odd. But recently I've become very disillusioned, just bored of it. But golden handcuffs on fully now.

I got very lucky with an acquisition recently and have my eyes on something else. If goes to plan I think I might have an exit.

I'm just tired of an excessive lifestyle with complete ********. But im under no illusion ******** jobs have even more pressure for even less.

Edit: lifestyle creep is a very real reality. I insulated myself to a greater degree with my personality and by doing minimum. Eg I bought nice "showy" car which was a sensible purchase because of the label and a Tesla S because again people cannot tell if it was for savings or idealogy haha. Watching some of the insane purchases of people and sheer waste of money is incredible. Especially for idiots for who it's easy come easy go and yet did not build up portfolios first etc. If I lose my job tomorrow at least I have houses and investments. I know people that can spend v healthy 6figure salaries with **** all to show for it at the end.



Out of curiosity if you had your time again would it take you 15 years again to make VP, and if not why another 10 to make Director? (Assuming I didn't read you wrong). What area you in that progression takes that long?

And yes transformation is a huge problem, streamlining and a race to a bottom has the ladder continually being cut. The next 5-10 years are going to be significantly more difficult than ever before. A lot of people are going to feel a lot of pain and getting to higher grounds before the flood comes makes sense.

You earn multiples of 150k? Impressive Skywalker.
How many Gucci belts though?