Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

Rroff · 14 Mar 2018 at 13:31

ubersonic said:
Not a difficult job when they have to down Su-27, MiG-29, MiG-23, etc (AKA the very things they were designed to down).

Unless Russia can pump out 300 Su-57 overnight they would be at a huge numbers disadvantage in the air.

This is where a good number of things like the Type 45s would be useful - especially if they stay on top of upgrades to the Aster platform, etc. so as to give themselves protection against progressive development of Russian anti-ship missiles.

Secret_Window · 14 Mar 2018 at 13:47

I find it strange that we won't just give the evidence to Russia to shut them up. But then, when I look at the other assassinations on our soil in the past linked to Russia, the nerve agents recently used in Syria, and Putin showing off new nuclear weapons breaching US/Nato defences, I then tend to think perhaps we shouldn't waste our time.

KillBoY_UK · 14 Mar 2018 at 13:48

ubersonic said:
The EU alone is more than a match for Russia in a conventional war, never mind the whole of NATO (Russia's has more tank but that wouldn't help them against our air supremacy, just like it didn't help Gaddafi).

Jeremy Corbyn as already said if a Nato Ally was attacked by Russia he won't come to there aid. Well to be fair he said:

"I would want to avoid us getting involved militarily by building up the diplomatic relationships... I don't wish to go to war, what I want to do is achieve a world where there is no need to go to war."

Which in a ideal world would be great but we don't such statements from him when asked directly don't feel me with confidence I would like to have.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-37125824/corbyn-on-defending-a-nato-ally

Firestar_3x · 14 Mar 2018 at 13:48

Secret_Window said:
I find it strange that we won't just give the evidence to Russia to shut them up. But then, when I look at the other assassinations on our soil in the past linked to Russia, the nerve agents recently used in Syria, and Putin showing off new nuclear weapons breaching US/Nato defences, I then tend to think perhaps we shouldn't waste our time.

So upon getting the evidence what is the likelihood of him turning around and say "whoops yes it was up", can you have a negative probability?

kindai · 14 Mar 2018 at 13:49

Corbyn's response... LOL how can anyone vote for someone so out of touch with reality.

Secret_Window · 14 Mar 2018 at 13:50

Firestar_3x said:
So upon getting the evidence what is the likelihood of him turning around and say "whoops yes it was up", can you have a negative probability?

Well exactly, he won't admit it. That's why I said we probably shouldn't waste our time.

Putin fixes his own elections every election. He is a dictator. It's fake democracy in Russia. If his controlling nature is anything to by in that sense alone, it will tell you he will never admit Russia was behind it even in the face of evidence.

Nerusy · 14 Mar 2018 at 13:52

Secret_Window said:
I find it strange that we won't just give the evidence to Russia to shut them up. But then, when I look at the other assassinations on our soil in the past linked to Russia, the nerve agents recently used in Syria, and Putin showing off new nuclear weapons breaching US/Nato defences, I then tend to think perhaps we shouldn't waste our time.

May said she will get Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons to verify the analysis made by the UK. So there will be 3rd party verification that there is no funny business.

Firestar_3x · 14 Mar 2018 at 13:53

kindai said:
Corbyn's response... LOL how can anyone vote for someone so out of touch with reality.

Exposed himself for what he actually is, a massively misguided repose and instead of saying something constructive and supportive he used the opportunity to get up on his soapbox instead.

Jono8 · 14 Mar 2018 at 13:54

There likely isn't any more evidence. What do any of you expect them to have?

Likely, all they know is that a former Russian spy/double agent was attacked by a Russian nerve agent. Then another Russian exile is found dead in his home.

It is hardly a stretch to blame Russia is it, especially with their history of these things.

Rroff · 14 Mar 2018 at 13:56

kindai said:
Corbyn's response... LOL how can anyone vote for someone so out of touch with reality.

Anything particular you are talking about? aside from some of it being a little head in the clouds it seemed mostly reasonable and I'm not one to generally defend Corbyn.

Secret_Window · 14 Mar 2018 at 13:59

Firestar_3x said:
Exposed himself for what he actually is, a massively misguided repose and instead of saying something constructive and supportive he used the opportunity to get up on his soapbox instead.

I have serious worries how Corbyn would deal with this. He wants to get rid of Trident, which nobody wants to see used, but if we didn't have it I think Russia would definitely take us less seriously and be even more of a threat.

I like Corbyn's ideas, but I don't think he would cope in times like this.

VincentHanna · 14 Mar 2018 at 14:01

He wants to get rid of it, yes. But he isn't a dictator and it was part of the Labour manifesto to renew it.

Rroff · 14 Mar 2018 at 14:06

VincentHanna said:
He wants to get rid of it, yes. But he isn't a dictator and it was part of the Labour manifesto to renew it.

But with his approach to it the capabilities in the long run would be impacted - none the less now other countries know he'd have doubts over it which significantly weakens it as a deterrent.

He doesn't seem to comprehend that sometimes you have nothing another entity wants to hear and sometimes no amount of talk can get you out of a situation and that some entities only understand and respond to power and not being aggressive doesn't mean they won't be aggressive towards you.

gettothechopper · 14 Mar 2018 at 14:07

Given the oppertunity to show that the UK is united in its response to Russia, and that one of the main criticisms of JC (weak on defence) is not accurate, he didnt condem Russia's actions and also didnt offer the solidaritiy that the SNP and LDems did

seems his own party didnt agree with the front bench...

I did agree about the FCO cuts (Tory MP Rory Stewart has some good points about this in the past)

Firestar_3x · 14 Mar 2018 at 14:09

Interesting that the reason not to attack Russia is given that it would result in "nuclear war" yet when asked about our own nuclear deterrent the answer is somewhat different, if having nuclear weapons is not a deterrent then surely we should be getting ready to steamroller Russia with Nato.............

Scania · 14 Mar 2018 at 14:10

Secret_Window said:
I have serious worries how Corbyn would deal with this. He wants to get rid of Trident, which nobody wants to see used, but if we didn't have it I think Russia would definitely take us less seriously and be even more of a threat.

I like Corbyn's ideas, but I don't think he would cope in times like this.

I like some of his ideas too - and I’m no fan, believe me - but his ideology is completely at odds with the realities of life and the increasing threats we face from all sides.

He was wholly unstatesman like (as usual) and just undermined the united front the House of Commons - for all its faults - presents in times of national threat.

I’ve been far from impressed by Theresa May since the election but, have to say, I’m glad it’s her who’s responding to the Russians at the despatch box , I dread to think what his response would have been.

KillBoY_UK · 14 Mar 2018 at 14:11

Rroff said:
Anything particular you are talking about? aside from some of it being a little head in the clouds it seemed mostly reasonable and I'm not one to generally defend Corbyn.

It gives impression he would talk and talk up until the tanks rolled up to the parliament building. Whats the point of NATO if Corbyn as PM would regale on a core aspect of it?

I want to avoid war and conflict but would want a PM who would know how to and when to use the stick and not just the carrot

RaohNS · 14 Mar 2018 at 14:13

Andy_82 said:
Do you have the link? Russia does have a lot to gain, essentially nationalism is the few things that binds the state together, especially at a time when the Russian economy is struggling.

craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/russian-to-judgement

The Russians would lose by doing this. What do they have to gain. Realistically...

Rroff · 14 Mar 2018 at 14:13

KillBoY_UK said:
It gives impression he would talk and talk up until the tanks rolled up to the parliament building. Whats the point of NATO if Corbyn as PM would regale on a core aspect of it?

I want to avoid war and conflict but would want a PM who would know how to and when to use the stick and not just the carrot

Yeah it is one of the reasons I think people are daft to vote for Corbyn - he lacks sufficient pragmatism to be a PM plus sooner or later you have to make personal sacrifices as a PM for the good of the country and he has shown several times he isn't prepared to when it comes to ideology grounds.

RaohNS · 14 Mar 2018 at 14:15

nkata said:
Assuming for one moment that it was in the UK interest to bump him off, it would have been a lot simpler not to do it in public with a family member, doctor and policeman as collateral also potentially dozens more. It would have been a far cozier affair.

Not necessarily. Maybe UK forces did it publicly to say "this bears the hallmarks of the Russians. They've done it publicly to send a loud clear message".

I'm not convinced.

Plus it would hamper my trip to Russia next year anyway. So hope it doesn't get too bad they restrict visas else it may be a waste of money lulz

Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

Sgarrista